[Solved] Child maintenance whilst self employed HELP

I think that is part the case.

If she does not ask for a variation based on undeclared income then they will take your salary figure only and it will remain low.

I believe if she asked for a variation then they would contact HMRC and see your latest figures which would include dividends and apply this to the calculation.

So it is her silence and assumed acceptance of the current amount that means no one is looking further.

Personally I would now keep quiet if you are not being pushed.

With regard to me, the only reason I was volunteering more is that i knew from past employment that this was the correct level, but also I have had enough of the constant phone calls and letters from CMS as my ex has tried to make trouble over the years. Including telling them I am not having my child when I certainly am. I have had around 15 different amounts to pay over 3 years based on her continued meddling. If she accepted voluntarfy then there is no one to complain to!

I'll just continue to pay as they ask if that's the case then. If they ever question it I can demonstrate I tried to disclose as much information as possible by showing them the letters, self assessments that I'd sent into them (which I have kept on file) and documented all the phone calls (inc dates, times people I'd spoken to).

Out of interest, at what point would the Financial Investigations Unit get involved? Is this upon the PWC raising a variation, or is this something completely seperate ?

For me the pattern was:-

Ex asked for a mandatory reconsideration of the CMS award.
CMS came back with the original figure, based on HMRC figures, incl salary & dividends.
She contacted CMS and told them she would be appealing and that I was with-holding or diverting income.
I was contacted by the CMS Financial Investigation Unit, saying they were investigating my income and wanted to know about any other income and my pension contributions.
At similar time I had one letter from HM Courts & Tribunal saying I was subject to an appeal and I should contact them if I did not want my address disclosed.

I have heard nothing since. My understanding from using Wikivorce and this forum is that likely 6 months after the first letter(above) I will receive a letter giving a date for the tribunal hearing and giving me a month to submit my evidence against my Exs.

Then I will be grilled by some financial expert and a judge will likely make an arbitrary award based on what he see's and what he feels my intentions are. It could be same amoubt as current, or more. This is only my understanding from limited internet research. If anyone can offer more detailed advice it will be appreciated.

As you say, you have offered, you have evidence. I think you have done enough.

For me the pattern was:-

Ex asked for a mandatory reconsideration of the CMS award.
CMS came back with the original figure, based on HMRC figures, incl salary & dividends.
She contacted CMS and told them she would be appealing and that I was with-holding or diverting income.
I was contacted by the CMS Financial Investigation Unit, saying they were investigating my income and wanted to know about any other income and my pension contributions.
At similar time I had one letter from HM Courts & Tribunal saying I was subject to an appeal and I should contact them if I did not want my address disclosed.

I have heard nothing since. My understanding from using Wikivorce and this forum is that likely 6 months after the first letter(above) I will receive a letter giving a date for the tribunal hearing and giving me a month to submit my evidence against my Exs.

Then I will be grilled by some financial expert and a judge will likely make an arbitrary award based on what he see's and what he feels my intentions are. It could be same amoubt as current, or more. This is only my understanding from limited internet research. If anyone can offer more detailed advice it will be appreciated.

As you say, you have offered, you have evidence. I think you have done enough.

I guess from your perspective, your ex (not sure if you were married or not) knew more about your finances given you must have been a lot closer to her than I was to mine. So she would naturally know if your salary went from x to y and could suss out if you were strategically trying to lower the CM payments.

From my perspective she had no idea what my salary was back then, which was 11 years ago (or anything to do with my finances as at time, as I was living with parents) compared to where I am at now.

There would have to be a legitimate enough reason for her to do a mandatory reconsideration / variation of the payments, as until now this has never been questioned and I hope it stays that way. However I am confident that there is no reason for her to consider this as we literally have known nothing about one another's lives for over a decade.

So to summarise, are you saying that the FIU would only be involved once the PWC has caused enough fuss regarding a variation / mandatory reconsideration with the CMS before getting involved? Also, how far back would they look, or is it just on the last tax year?

It's such nonsense that this all cannot be arranged privately rather than having to have 3rd parties involved.

Don't think they need to cause a fuss as such. They are entitled to ask for them to look at dividends if CMS have only considered salary. But essentially yes, it is the case that FIU would have to be asked to get involved by the Ex and if she continues to dispute the CMS award after mandatory reconsideration.

I am no expert and only going by my own experiences. But my thoughts are that CMS should consult HMRC for the earnings figures for each yearly reassessment, and if your accounts have been filed and they show the dividends paid then they should take this higher figure and award accordingly.

I am guessing, but I think if your ex was contact them now, it would only be relevant to the current year of assessment, not trawled back through other years.

And finally, I have not been trying to under pay, the reverse. I have been trying to be honest with CMS and pay what I am due. But firstly they ignored my letter saying I had been paid dividends, calculating on basic salary only. Then later, when calculating the dividends they seem to ignore Corp tax, so figure was still less. So I offered to Ex to go voluntary and pay her what the correct figure should be, but she chose to ignore and go to the tribunal instead hoping to find a pot of gold.

I have been honest and up front, but unfortunately the fact the mother is taking you to tribunal means everyone treats you as a father shirking his responsibilities that needs to be grilled and punished. I just hope the process is fair and they have time to listen and consider the truth of the situation. I fear not though!

Don't think they need to cause a fuss as such. They are entitled to ask for them to look at dividends if CMS have only considered salary. But essentially yes, it is the case that FIU would have to be asked to get involved by the Ex and if she continues to dispute the CMS award after mandatory reconsideration.

I am no expert and only going by my own experiences. But my thoughts are that CMS should consult HMRC for the earnings figures for each yearly reassessment, and if your accounts have been filed and they show the dividends paid then they should take this higher figure and award accordingly.

I am guessing, but I think if your ex was contact them now, it would only be relevant to the current year of assessment, not trawled back through other years.

And finally, I have not been trying to under pay, the reverse. I have been trying to be honest with CMS and pay what I am due. But firstly they ignored my letter saying I had been paid dividends, calculating on basic salary only. Then
later, when calculating the dividends they seem to ignore Corp tax, so figure was still less. So I offered to Ex to go voluntary and pay her what the correct figure should be, but she chose to ignore and go to the tribunal instead hoping to find a pot of gold.

I have been honest and up front, but unfortunately the fact the mother is taking you to tribunal means everyone treats you as a father shirking his responsibilities that needs to be grilled and punished. I just hope the process is fair and they have time to listen and consider the truth of the situation. I fear not though!

Just going through your points made...

Agree the PWC is entitled to ask for a variation. However, this would only be on the strength of the PWC knowing that the caclulations were incorrect but how would they know, let alone prove it?

My understanding is HMRC provide salary only figures from PAYE / self assessments for salary only. Then CMS calculate based on this. When CMS write to both PWC and NRP they provide the new calculation. As far as I am aware, the earnings are not disclosed to the PWC ie gross earnings = x. It's just the yearly contributions broke down into monthly payments?

I wasn't aware that CMS looked at the company accounts of an LTD co? I thought their only interest is in the information disclosed in the self assessment for the individual? This is news to me. Perhaps they delve deeper into the company accounts if a variation has been made?

Apologies, I didn't mean to make it sound like your were making lower payments. It's a shame that your ex is trying to cream you for every penny. It this that gives the mothers a bad name when all they are after is the money and not a middle ground with the other parent.

She would not have to prove anything, just ask. If for instance you are paying £75 per month (based on 8K salary) and she hears from someone else that they get much more, or sees something on line. Then all she has to do is contact them and ask for a variation on unearned income and then CMS ask you for details, incl Div payments. Also HMRC figures should have that showing, based on latest filed accounts. So they would re-award upwards at that point.

Earnings are not disclosed to your ex, but she can look on line and see how much net worth you have in your limited company.

CMS do not normally ask for limited company account information. It is only when they get their teeth stuck into you from the financial investigation unit. They wrote to me and asked for my last two years full set of unabbreviated accounts. I am assuming that in due course the HM Tribunal will ask me similar before the hearing date.

It does seem stupid that in this case, CMS and HM Courts are not necessarily co-operating as my ex is effectively taking CMS to tribunal for an incorrect calculation rather than me personally. But you can see why CMS is so backlogged. My ex's case should be thrown out as trouble making and speculative, and particularly as I have volunteered to pay much more. But it has to go all the way through to the end, imagine how many others are doing the same!

She would not have to prove anything, just ask. If for instance you are paying £75 per month (based on 8K salary) and she hears from someone else that they get much more, or sees something on line. Then all she has to do is contact them and ask for a variation on unearned income and then CMS ask you for details, incl Div payments. Also HMRC figures should have that showing, based on latest filed accounts. So they would re-award upwards at that point.

Earnings are not disclosed to your ex, but she can look on line and see how much net worth you have in your limited company.

CMS do not normally ask for limited company account information. It is only when they get their teeth stuck into you from the financial investigation unit. They wrote to me and asked for my last two years full set of unabbreviated accounts. I am assuming that in due course the HM Tribunal will ask me similar before the hearing date.

It does seem stupid that in this case, CMS and HM Courts are not necessarily co-operating as my ex is effectively taking CMS to tribunal for an incorrect calculation rather than me personally. But you can see why CMS is so backlogged. My ex's case should be thrown out as trouble making and speculative, and particularly as I have volunteered to pay much more. But it has to go all the way through to the end, imagine how many others are doing the same!

See I've read on various websites that for the CMS to open a variation order, it's the responsibility of the PWC to provide evidence of the NRP to prove they are under paying or living a life outside of the stated salary earnings. They don't just open an investigation on a whim because the PWC thinks the NRP is earning more than disclosed, otherwise they would be inundated with these types of queries. The onus is on the PWC to prove this.

I think this is possibly where you have come unstuck (for want of a better word) as your ex is aware of your expenditure / salary / company details etc and is in a position of power to know what she can get and prove this. Whereas for me, it's slightly different as she knows nothing about me. My employment status (PAYE or SE), the company name, my home address, DOB, nothing. So she can in my opinion only go on the details provided by HMRC /CMS. Plus we live circa 100 miles away from each other too!

CMS haven't calculated my payments based on my 8k salary (even though they have stated this is my salary they've calculated it against) essentially they've kept my CM payments the same as they were when they calculated them back in 2017, when I confirmed my earnings part PAYE/SE as 30k+ (290 odd per month) and have said my salary hasn't changed by more than 25% - which is why I've not caused a fuss as I am happy to continue to pay it but for a salary of 8k I am way overpaying.

Hi,

I have a similar issue. However, I am employed via an Umbrella company and receive a minimum wage salary. My ex has taken our CMS case to a First Tier Tribunal as she wishes to challenge my annual income, as she finds it difficult to believe that I am able to sustain a normal lifestyle with my current income. We have had a first hearing which I choose not to attend. However, I had given as much information and evidence as possible. HMCT have now asked for me to provide my bank statements for previous tax years. I am very worried as my Mother had registered one of her jobs to my bank account. Therefore, I have been receiving my Mothers pay to help with my living and rental costs, due to financial circumstances. I am concerned as to how the courts will look at this.

can anyone advise on this.

hi,

I would recommend you contact someone who has experience with CMS cases/tribunals. you can try https://www.nacsa.co.uk/