[Solved] What would you tell David Cameron ?

I'll try to catch that debate if available on catch up - BTW, the link to the news didn't work for me.

I'll start this off, possibly controversially on a Dad's site, but having given this some thought and being in a different position to a lot of separated/divorced Dads on here.

I would be very worried by the idea of giving any parent a legal right to access - at present, it is the child who has a legal right to access to the parents (a fact that I didn't know and appreciate until I joined this forum) and this still seems to me to be the best solution. What I think the government should be doing is to strengthen those rights, and to enforce them vigorously when either parent is disregarding those rights - I think that is where the system is failing the non-resident parent (mostly fathers) at the present.

What worries me is that if parents have a legal right to have contact, then what happens to the rights of the child if abuse has taken place, or how often would contact be legislated for, what sort of contact, and what happens if the parent uses the right to contact the child when it suits him/her with little or no regard to the welfare of the child?

My own case is not common - I have two daughters. My youngest daughter has contact with her mother once a month at a contact centre. It was originally twice a month in the contact order, but my ex was so erratic as to whether she bothered (or even remembered on one occasion) to turn up that my daughter was becoming resigned to the fact that she probably might not come (and sometimes the notice that she wasn't was the day before or even the morning of contact). Not only did this mean that my daughter didn't have contact, but it also meant she'd missed the opportunity to arrange anything with friends - so I went back to court and got the order varied to once an month, with a reasonable notice period to cancel. Even with that, my ex still only makes on average about 9 contacts out of the 12 available each year, and because arriving at the contact centre at 11am means she'd have to get up very early, contact only is 3.5 hours long instead of the available 4 hours.

My older daughter made it very clear from the start (just over 6 years ago now) that she didn't want contact with her mother (I originally kept asking her until she told me not to keep asking, if she wanted to see her mother, she'd let me know). In the time since, she has seen my ex on one occasion only - she is now 19 and at uni so she doesn't even have to ask me now - and other forms of contact are minimal. An enforced right of the parent to have contact would have meant that my ex could have forced me to take my daughter to the contact centre, and I am certain my ex would have made sure that I did regardless of my daughter's wishes simply as a way of having a small victory over me.

So, no, I don't think this is a good idea. By all means, give strong guidance to the courts that contact with both parents is the presumed starting point, but allow the court to make the final decision, and make sure that the courts penalise heavily (at an early stage) any parent who disregards the court order. I think if the courts did that, a lot of fathers on here who struggle to have contact would have just as much contact as if contact was legislated for. After all, a lot of fathers already have a legal right to see their children - that's what the contact order gives them - but are still denied that contact by the mother.

ps - Just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I'm right. Come on Dad's, this is an important news item, that needs debate 🙂

I haven't read or heard the to much about this but like actd will try and catch it later.

I'm for and against this,

I'd say "for it" in the respect that the resident parent can make it almost imposible for the non resident parent to see the child so having a legal right "should" make it better for them, however as actd say giving this legal right tp the perant may not be in the interest of the child.

If a child has been abused either mentally or physically and is scared of the abusing parent, and that parentends up having a legal right to see that child it could end up causing major distress to them mentally even if the contact was in a contact centre.

Just my view, what do the rest of you think?

I’ve not actually seen or heard this fully yet either, just a snip-it by a colleague this morning.
The one thing I have seen by (a fathers4justice update) that I like the sounds of is contacting your local MP with your story about your situation and fatherhood and how your ex is effectively ruining it for you and your child/children.
Come on guys I think it’s time to act with these issues fully in the MP’s minds and Press coverage its getting.
I will certainly be digging out my story and forwarding it to my MP with the proof and court notes especially the Judge’s comments from the Finding of Fact where my ex finally after two years admitted she lied to the police - (Dec 2009 and Jan-May 2011) and that she has misled the courts since I started my battle for a defined contact order in Oct 2010 to stop her messing me and my son about when she felt like it. I’m sure I’m not alone in that one!

I have to partially agree with the post by Actd, but there certainly needs to be something in there for giving us Fathers as much right as the Mothers to our children get. Its not just fathers faults!!!

Yes there needs to be guidance and more so where children have been abused that needs extra legislation.

But don’t forget that it’s not just the Fathers that are the baddies, or are the abusers or violent persons in these cases. What about the emotional abuse the Mothers force the child to endure through their Spite and intent on seeking revenge against their ex who may or may not have done what they accuse us of. For those of us who came eventually prove their lies and deceitfulness we need this equal rights to see our children.

Interesting but what values as dads do you bring to your childrens lives, that would make it important for you to be involved ?

OK, I'll refer to my own case to answer this. My ex had custody of my children for just under 3 years after the divorce. I always knew that the children weren't too happy with their mother (I did a 400 mile round trip every alternate Sunday to have contact with them) but my ex (to her credit) never tried to deny me contact, though she did put me down at every opportunity to the children. The first time I knew that things were a lot worse than I had suspected was when my older daughter told me she was starting to self harm. Needless to say, things moved pretty quickly from that point on, but the children were reluctant to open up to anyone else - even after I found out, and set up support with school and outside support, they wouldn't say much. When the children came to live with me - which was very sudden - pretty much everyone who knew them were shocked at the move, no-one had noticed anything particular was wrong, and I heard that at a meeting between the police and social services the day after they came to me, Social Services asked the question "why didn't we know about this?"

My point is, that I was the only person my daughter trusted to say anything to (they had said something to my ex's mother, and that went straight back to my ex). If I hadn't been around, I can't be certain that she would have even been alive now, or if she was, who knows what path she would have gone down to escape from my ex. So I think I have a pretty strong case to say that children need their fathers. Doesn't change my argument before though - I still think that the courts (or mediation service) should grant the right of access through a contact order (and then have the teeth to back that up) rather than a broad legislation.

I actually believe that there should be a legal presumption in law of contact for parents to their child regardless of when they separate. I do however stipulate that there must be no safeguarding or welfare issues of course.

At present the Right is for the Right of the Child, and in my opinion a parent should have the right to their child too. If a parent did have a legal right to access to their child and this of course was enshrined into law it would present a two-fold impact on:
• Contact Hearings would be done inside of 1 meeting (unless again there were welfare issues) and so reducing cost to the parents and to the state and free up the “out-of-control number of cases at some family courts”
• Parents would by law have to recognise that the other parent (Non-Resident) has a Legal Right in Law to see their child, should this be denied they would be aware from a Legal standpoint they would not have an opportunity to make any form of contesting [see] for Bullet Point 1

At present the Law dictates that access is a right of the child. It is precisely because of this access being the right of the child that parents have to fight and battle for [according to Norgrove Report statistics] 2years on average to have a fully fledged contact order. Should Parents have their Right to Contact in law the above bullet points would certainly apply.

I do however hold a highly pessimistic view of the Family Court system in the respect that the Solicitors/Barristers and ergo Ministers (MP’s) will be against this as potentially it excludes them from thousands of pounds of income.

There could also be other far reaching cornerstones of this being put into Law in that in many cases Parents (primarily Mothers) who are seeking to put distance between themselves and an ex-spouse (usually Fathers) (mine to be a case in point relatively soon) would have to present a stronger case as it would technically break both the rights of the child and the/a Parent.

At present, a Custodian parent can move and the rights of the child 9/10 become forfeit, because the custodian parent has a desire to move, the Child will not know the far lasting consequences or impact on contact with the non-resident parent and being a child cannot challenge the move with anyone but the Custodian parent. A non-resident parent if they had a Legal Right would be able to ensure that somebody would by default be fighting for the rights of themselves and also… for the thing that currently becomes forfeit… the right of the child to have a “meaningful” relationship.

There is of course so much more that I could write however there is an element of futility.

The thought of the right being that of the parents worries me - that would potentially mean that a child has no rights at all - again, taking my own example, once my children were living with me, and contact was supervised, there was no danger to my children during contact. My older daughter simply did not want to have contact with her mother and the court (albeit reluctantly) agreed that she was old enough and mature enough to make that decision and did not make a contact order for her. If the right of contact had been with the mother, my daughter simply wouldn't have had that option and, potentially I would have been faced with forcing her to go to contact against her wishes - I can't imagine what that would have done to the trust she has for me.

As for contact being sorted out at the first hearing, surely all the resident parent has to do is to say that s/he has concerns for the childs welfare and that will mean further hearings, so I don't think it would improve matters.

To be honest, I think if the rights were changed and the appropriate safeguards were put in place, I don't think the changed system would be drastically better or worse than the existing system - just different, and there would be a period of settling in which might allow some abuses.

The problem with either system is one of enforcement. The courts seem reluctant to impose penalties for disregarding court orders - if that was done, plus some tweaking to share costs where large distances are involved, I think the existing system would have no real disadvantage over the new proposals, and the real advantage that the child has rights, rather than being treated as property.

One thought has occurred to me - we are talking here about what we'd say to David Cameron if we had the opportunity. What are the chances of Dadtalk trying to get that opportunity to have that discussion with him or a minister? I'd certainly be up for coming along to a discussion if it could be arranged - surely Dadtalk is a group that should be consulted.

One more point - for those who don't read the news on the website (of course, I'm sure there aren't any such people), there is link below to a draft letter to send to your MP, so if you haven't already done so, write quickly as the vote is on 20th January.

http://www.dadtalk.co.uk/why-dads-matter-news/1412-write-to-you-mp-to-support-the-children-access-to-parents-bill