[Solved] Varying a Court Order regarding contact?

Hi

I would say you have every reason to go back and have the order varied. It would be worth ringing the CCLC for some free advice since you are representing yourself. One thing is do before you file the forms is to write to you ex's solicitor to inform them of you intention to do so in the light of her failure to consider meditation - the reason I suggest this is that it might just persuade her that you are serious about taking her to court, and if she is using a solicitor, that's going to cost in time and effort so she may just reconsider meditation.

Hi DAG,

In order to vary the Contact Order, you will need to complete a new C100 and attach the "existing" order so to speak.

There is a guide as a sticky and also a guide to self representation here.

The important thing i would take away from this is that at 12years of age, a Court will definately take into consideration of your daughter. It seems such a shame that so many mothers always put their own agenda's ahead of their children.

I will just say one thing, that at the age your daughter is, if she wishes to see you, she is now old enough to do so. Indeed you could raise instances of the Court Order being abused from its original purpose at the hearing and the examples you have given clearly highlight this.

When at Court, the first thing that they will do is to isolate what you are wanting and focus their attentions on this. Given the age of your daughter, her wishes should/will actually be considered foremost. It is important as well that you specifically request regarding CAFCASS (possibly contact them a few days before) and ask that any interview with your daughter be done in private without the mother present. Historically, from speaking to people regarding these visits most mothers put undue pressure on the child during these meetings. In effect they are scared to say what they really want for fear of upset or even repercussions.

You sound like a really fantastic Dad and keep up the good work. Your daughter will appreciate it and you more with every passing year.

Hi Dag,

I will ask the Corams Childrens Legal Centre to pop by and respond to your questions. Keep popping back for their response and sage words.

Gooner

Dear Dag,

Thank you for your query.

In regard to varying a contact order, we would advise that you attempt mediation first. This is due to the no order principle under the law, which states that the court will not put an order in place unless they felt that it were to be completely necessary. Therefore, we would advise that you attempt mediation with the mother. You may wish to contact National Family Mediation regarding mediation. Their telephone number is 0300 4000 636.

If mediation is not successful then we would advise that you apply to vary the contact order through the court via a C100 form. As you have obtained the form, we would advise that you state your reasoning for applying for variation. Once you have completed the form, you must lodge the form at the court closest to where your daughter resides. If you wish to represent yourself and would like guidance on the application process, then we would advise that you obtain a CB1 form, and additionally, a CB3 form. The application cost is £200, however if you are eligible for legal aid then you may wish to complete the fee exemption form EX160A. You can obtain this form either at your local court, or online, via www.justice.gov.uk.

Once you receive a court date the matter will go before the family proceedings court, and the judge will make a decision based on the child welfare principle and the child welfare checklist which is contained under s1(3) of the Children Act 1989.

Furthermore, as your daughter is now 12, she may be considered to be Gillick Competent. This means that she may be considered competent to make her own decisions, and these decisions may be given legal weighting.

If you have any specific requests regarding contact then we would advise that you present these to the judge. It would be the judge’s discretion whether to take your requests into consideration, but as previously mentioned, they will make a decision regarding this based on the welfare checklist.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us again. Our telephone number is 0808 802 0008.

Yours sincerely,

The Coram Children’s Legal Centre

Thankyou CCLC
for getting back to me and also to Goonerplum for putting them on to my predicament.
I have already tried to establish mediation through Family Matters Mediation Services and I attended. I sent my ex an invitation to consider attending to discuss the contact of our daughter but her reply through her solicitor was a resounding NO!
I have had the C100 form filled in and ready to process with all necessary docs and monies since the begining of November hoping not to have to go down this route as I dont feel i can go on with yet another battle.
All i want is some regular day to day normality with regard to my daughter. Even my partner who has three children have all been affected by what has been happening over the past four years we have been together. All our kids love each other and get on fantastic (we are lucky in that respect) and share the experience when we try to arrange activities/holiday time etc and have to organise them around somone who wants to be unreasonable. My partners kids are taken care of by both their mum and dad on a 50/50 basis in every respect, their separation/divorce was was hard emotionally but they remaind ammicable in the sense their contact is as natural as you can get in a separation, neither parent takes priority over the other and the kids come first. My daughter often says she wished her mum would just let her have the same relationship with both of us as she knows there is no reason at all why it shouldnt be that way other than her mum trying to cause distruption and those are my daughters words(out of the mouths of babes). I to wish it could be natural but i know it won't be as long as my ex can control everthing.

iv got to go but i will be back later just to post a little more info thanks

Evening all,
iv got a little time to spare so i thought i'd put a bit more info your way just to get a bit of feed back to see if you think what i'm going to ask for in varing the contact order i have for my daughter seems reasonable.

First thanks again to all who replied to my last post.

Here goes the following is the contact i have had in place since the final hearing of November 2007

Current contact order 2007 to Date

Every Wednesday from 5.30pm to 8pm

Every weekend from Friday at 6.45pm until Saturday at 6pm save for the last weekend of the month when it shall be extended to Sunday at 6pm.

During School Half Term Holidays from Wednesday 5.30pm until Saturday 6pm.

At Easter each year from Friday after Easter at 5.30pm until the following Saturday at 6pm.

In the School Summer Holidays for the Second and Fith Weeks from Sunday at 5.30pm until Sunday at 6pm.

At Christmas each alternate year from 27th December 2007 at 5.30pm until 3rd January 2008 at 5.30pm.

Every alternate Christmas Commencing 2008 from 27th December until 31st Decmber 12 noon and 1st January at 5pm until 3rd January at 5.30pm.

Ok thats the final contact order i have at present.
Since separation in 2006 i have always picked my daughter up and took her back to her mums, as her mum refused to share this responsibilty.
At first i moved back to my parents then i rented a house which i have lived in for the past 5 years which is closer to my daughter approx 10mins drive away.
Since my daughter got a mobile phone in October last year, for the first time we can now keep in touch daily by txt as before this her mum would not allow any contact inbetween the stated contact order times, now she doesnt have that same control.
In the past 6 years i have only missed 3 days of contact as the order states due to my circumstances. Once due to surgery, another to an accident and finaly to me being out of the country. Even though i made a request to my ex to either fetch my daughter to me as i couldnt drive or change the day i could see my daughter before i was away, my ex just refused. ( This doesnt include the times my ex has stopped contact and either i have had to wait for the court to reinstate contact. Or for contact to cotinue when she has interpreted the order as she see's fit)
In the past the ex has written via her solicitor stating she has booked a holiday abroad and wants me to change my summer holiday dates threatening if i dont it will reflect badly on me to my daughter. I have never wanted to stop my daughter doing anything with her mum so changing would never be an issue with me as flexiblity is about what is good for my daughter.
But alas not when it is me who request flexibilty of contact, then it is just disregarded!!!
So just a little more info as to what point im at.

All i am going to ask for in varing the order is as follows;

The mid-week wednesday night contact to be extended to an overnight stay and my daughter goes to school from my house.

The Friday night pick up time to be changed to 5.30pm (this will then allow us time to arrange activities on friday evenings. As the original 6.45pm pickup time was only stated by my ex because she enrolled my daughter in to a dance class which my daughter only attended for a matter of months 2007-08 before she told her mum she didnt want to go anymore. )

The last weekend of the month to be made clearer so it cant be changed to suit the ex's interpretation (is the last weekend of the month inclusive if friday is the last day of the month and saturday is the first day of the new month!! Belive me thats how bad it is the weather is more predictable)

Half term to be extended from the return on saturday at 6pm to the sunday at 6 pm (this then makes it nearly half of the half term weeks holiday and we can arrange more activties)

To make Easter more simple i will suggest i take the First week of the holidays and the ex has the second week. (This will then avoid the easter holidays changing each year as easter never falls the same so it some times means i would miss my daughters holdays)

I would like to have some extra days during the summer holidays as i only get to see my daughter for the 2 weeks stated my ex gets our daughter for 4 weeks as with all School holidays my ex suspends all contact midweek and weekend stating the holidays are different and her time to be with our daughter and will not agree on letting me see her extra during these times.

At Chrismas i would like my daughter from Boxing Day morning till the 3rd January. As every year i miss out on Christmas Eve ,Christmas Day and Boxig Day and alternately i have to take her back on New Years Eve And it messes with our week together as i then have to pick her back up on New Years day to bring her back to our home till the 3rd January. Originally i only agreed to this because my ex wouldnt move on the christmas holidays at all and i thought something was better than nothing.

As i mentioned earlier the ex will not discuss or be flexible with regard to contact between my daughter and myself and i believe varing the contact order in court is the only option i have left, im not asking for much more contact time really (really i would have my daughter 50/50 if i though the ex would agree, and my daughter said she would jump at the chance to be with me that much as its only the fair way to be) mainly getting the clarifacation on the times stated. My daughter just wants to see more of me as i do her, as i said she was 6/7 when the order was made she is now reaching 12.

Lastly can anyone confirm this for me , , , , in the past my ex and her solicitor say that when it comes to half term holidays any mid week and weekend contact stated in the order is cancelled out by the School holidays.!!!????????????? So for instance i see my daughter this wednesday for the 2 and half hour contact we have then because she breaks up on thursday i wont see her until the following wednesday (5.30pm) when my half term contact starts. This is because my ex says the half term holiday cancels out my contact on the friday over saturday and if it is the longer school holidays eg summer etc this means the midweek and long weekend (end of month) contact so i end up losing alot of contact!!??

Any thoughts on this?
Thanks

Ps if your confused now theres no helping you :woohoo:

Morning Dads

Has anyone any thoughts on what I'm thinking of asking as regards varying my contact order in my last post ?

Really reluctant to have to take this route but feel I have been left with no choice given I have tried all other options. 🙁

Hi DAG

I think the CCLC and yoji have covered quite a lot of ground, so it's tricky to add much more, as you seem to have exhausted the possibility of mediation, court seems to be your only remaining option, and you seem to have the forms etc. is there anything specific that you need extra information regarding?

Thanks actd for your reply

Sorry I didn't intend saturation on this post and appreciate all replies ive had. I just have no real confidence in the court system as it is so daunting and draining and I thought six years down the line it would have got a little easier.
I was just looking for a human perspective on the subject as I thought some Dads may have had experience in getting this sort of contact issue ironed out in court with a variation order.
I have come to the conclusion there probably is no other alternative.
Again sorry if it seemed I was looking for more legal avenues to explore.

Hi DAG,

Not a problem, and you're right to keep asking for advice until you have it clear in your own mind 🙂

I think there is a variety of experience on the forum so hopefully other dads well give you their take on you situation. I've been back to court for a variation to reduce my ex's contact as she was messing my daughter about (I'm probably in the minority on the forum in that I have residence of my children) and I think if you can reasonably justify what you are asking for, then you have a good chance in getting at least some of what you are seeking, bit of course there are never any guarantees.

Hi DAG,

Erm, i actually think that the specifics you are mentioning, might not go down too well in Court. Something i've personally heard before, and from speaking to a fair few people in your position. A Court could very well turn around and say you are being overbearing and have over expectations, there's too many .30's and a .45. You could change your mind on these. Below is a summary of your expectations, i'll elaborate afterwards;;;

As it stands (Youyr request):
- Every Wednesday from 5.30pm to 8pm
- Every weekend from Friday at 6.45pm until Saturday at 6pm save for the last weekend of the month when it shall be extended to Sunday at 6pm.
- During School Half Term Holidays from Wednesday 5.30pm until Saturday 6pm
- At Easter each year from Friday after Easter at 5.30pm until the following Saturday at 6pm.
- In the School Summer Holidays for the Second and Fith Weeks from Sunday at 5.30pm until Sunday at 6pm.
- At Christmas each alternate year from 27th December 2007 at 5.30pm until 3rd January 2008 at 5.30pm.
- Every alternate Christmas Commencing 2008 from 27th December until 31st Decmber 12 noon and 1st January at 5pm until 3rd January at 5.30pm.

You've gone overly specific, a Court will huff about this. I would suggest your variation read as follows:

Wednesdays 6pm-8pm
Weekends Friday-Saturday at 6pm
1wk of Easter Half Term
2nd and 5th Weeks of Summer Holidays
Alternate Christmas and New Year

In my opinion you're expecting too much regarding the specifics at the application phase. These will be included in the Order following your hearing.

I'd just put my Summary as above, its simple for the Court to follow and the specifics can be added into the Order if you so wish... me personally, i would avoid having some of the .30's and .45.

Don't do information overload you could trip yourself up. Hope this makes a bit more sense 🙂

Evening Yoji

I think you may have read my last post regarding contact wrongly.

What i have quoted at the begining of the post is Actually the Current Contact Order that is in place to date (2007- to date).

This was wrangled out through the courts and caffcas back in 2007 and was the result of the Pedantic request of my ex and her solicitors even though caffcas advised them against it , it still got passed through as the caffcas officer at the time advised me to accept for now ( because caffcas could not even get the ex to be reasonable about contact) and they just wanted to get an outcome after the length of time it had been dragged out, and they said as did the Judge "you can always come back at a latter date to have it varied, but it wont last forever as a natural progression to contact should develop". (other wise as my solicitor said its a cop out just to get your case out of the way, as they cant get your ex to agree and they just need the space for more serious cases as your has just been determined as a case of your ex wanting to stick the Knife in as it were!)
They said in ther reports that the only obsticle to contact was the Mother! No other reason!. (This conclusion took over a year for them to come to resulting in precious time lost with my daughter not to mention physical and mental costs to us )
But to this day, it has got no better.
So this is why im seeking to vary the order to simplify it and at the same time extend it for my daughters benefit and mine as her mum doesnt want to discuss contact and my daughters feelings and requst are pushed to the side , her mum just wants to hide behind the current order and use it against my daughter and i and our new family and use it as a BIG BEATING STICK!!

What Im actually considering is to ask the court to take all the silly pedantic measures out of the order not the other way round. Its to complicated as it is, we never know where we stand.
That is why for example, i was asking about when the order states : "every last weekend of the month its a long weekend friday to sunday"
when is it the last weekend of the month? Because the ex determines when that is, NOT the order, its left open for her to interpret it as she see fit, the order is just not clear enough.

All the other stuff like weekends, christmas, easter dates etc that i quoted " friday following easter" "Christmas Holidays. The day after Boxing day at 5.30 till whatever it says " "wednesday 5.30 till 8pm" " friday 6.45 till saturday 6pm"
thats all her doing!!!!
Not what im requesting, thats what i already put up with and its driving us insane!!

PS ANYONE going to court to sort out contact please dont fall for the wording of the Contact Order. CHECK the PHRASING of it YOURSELF check the dates, how it says hand over will take place, who takes who where etc please because usually the other sides solicitors are very cunning and pick up on loop holes to expliot . What we may see as one thing they already have determind as another to use to their clients benefit. (Thats just from my experience).

So im just trying to establish whether i am going mad or i am wright in asking a court to simplfy and extend contact.

Hi DAG,

I see now, many apologies.

Unless i am missing something, again my variance example could cover this. You would just need to put specifics to each of those dates. Its just from the context that this would simplify it. The actual work would be done in the Court room.

All the same i am absolutely flabbergasted at your current Order??? What was the Panel/Judge thinking who wrote this through, added the specifics, gave into whim of such a difficult and perplexing order??? I think i mentioned in my earlier post that the Court would huff at this... I've seen a fair few complicated ones but... yours takes the biscuit.

If you are seeking to vary the Order to simplify it... definately do this, Christ, you lost me! Your particular part that you refer to as you say could potentially be open to interpretation. Me personally i would request that every 4th or 5th week there is a long weekend. You are therefore working with numbers that cannot be mis-interpreted, twisted etc. Hope this has helped a little more?

Christ, you lost me!

that made me laugh, I think that's the first time you've been caught out. I was lost ages before 😆

:woohoo:
Thankyou Yoji

Halaujah I'm not going mad!!!

I thought I was going insane we have put up with this for 5 years.
And hum'd n ar'd at wether we would be took seriously with our requests of simplification.
And at times my daughter and I have stood in the driveway and just looked at each other laughing hysterically as to whether its time to take her back or not sometimes going back in the house and unpacking her bag after a txt from her mum, at other times I have turned up for her to be told go home its not your weekend, txt prior to contact etc etc.
We have the court order blue tacked on the back of the tall boy door because we have to double check and refer to it constantly along with a year planner mapping our time out together. Wednesday nights flash by as we only get 2 1/2 hours together my daughter wants to stay over now and go to school from here. In the Christmas hols we are always check-in we have the right year to be together on new years eve and for the 2nd year running we still have no confirmation to the Easter hols as the order states " Friday followig Easter etc" which would mean us missing being together during the school holidays as school has or would have already re-opened at this time.
This is no joke it literally governs every aspect of all of our lives every week, even including that of my partners life and her kids we never take for granted we will all be together at holiday times or pre organised activities during these times.
I have no doubt my ex's solicitor was a expert in his field of contact arrangements and their structure, in as being interpreted for ones benefit over the other. In fact he apparently was renowned for it I found this out after, and he was proud of this.
(Through my past experiences during my divorce/contact proceedings 2006 to 2011 and dealings in my profession)
But my confidence is shattered, as even the judge and caffcas couldn't get through to them in the past.
So now even though I have had everthing ready for months to take it back I just can't do the deed I'm frozen to the spot with fear of coming up against him again and a judge who just wants it out of the way without consideration of what has actually has been happening. I have no faith in the judicial system.

Hi DAG,

Lol yes, very confusing and like i say i'm amazed a Court has done this!!!

Have you ever thought more practically regarding a Shared Parenting Order (aka Shared Care)? In my opinion, you've got it already, Shared Care does not mean 50/50, just so you are aware.

In this way your contact could be re-summarised as follows:
Wednesday night
Weekends Friday-Saturday at 6pm
1wk of Easter Half Term
2nd and 5th Weeks of Summer Holidays
Alternate Christmas and New Year

And i would stongly contest your ex's solicitor being an expert in the contact field. That Order is absolutely abhorrent.

When in Court i'd explain your concerns about the level of precision that is not needed in relation to this Contact Order... you've put up with a difficult to follow Order for 5years now, and its time that the field is brought level. Now i'm in full understanding mode, i'd say practically you should request a Shared Parenting Order with the above specified. The judicial system should be getting better very soon, and many professionals are now much more sympathetic to the plight of Children and Fathers wanting eachother. 🙂

Hi Yoji
thankyou so much again for taking the time to look at my post.

You deserve a medal for getting your head round that little lot.
I could kiss you in a manly kinda way 😆 ! Second thoughts i will just get you a pint :cheer: .

What you have put makes so much more sense.
Im not asking to take anything away from my ex, just to as you put it "level the field".

From the outset i never obstructed anything even when she put in for residency. Because at that time i was back at my parents and didnt see residency being anything other than our daughter living at home with her mum. Its just since then when i have requested anything to do with our daughters contact arrangements, she bleats " I have residency and stick to the court order"! thats when and if she does reply.

I have a few question to ask you could i come back later to get your view on what you have mentioned please?
I would appreciate it as for the first time for a long time i dont feel like im going mad ;;) .

Hi DAG,

Sure feel free i should be checking back on here after 9 when little ones have gone sleep 🙂 and hopefully i can help some more.

Hello Yoji
sorry its been a while and i have'nt got back to you to ask about the Shared Parenting Order you mentioned in your previous replies, but really been busy with work etc.
Firstly developements since my last posts
I have now applied to court for a hearing to vary the current contact order. (after sitting on it for so long worrying about it, you certainly gave me the confidence by making me see i was'nt going mad)
I submitted the C100 and associated documents plus the fee with the intention of representing myself :sick: !
Just over a week ago i received a date for three weeks time (this being due to the local magistrates court having time to take some family proceeding cases to lighten the load on the county court) so we have lift off (my knees are shaking).
The court served the papers on my behalf so that saved me the hassle of having to do that.
I received a letter from cafcass the other day saying they will call me and my ex to see why this has been applied to court and if there are any issues relating to the wellbeing of our daughter, they may well speak to our daughter and her school and following checks to the authorities police etc they will then provide the court with any advice about the application that has been made.
So now im in the process of actually sitting down to put my statement and request together ahead of the first hearig.
I have simplified the current order to something like you suggested with the added contact i am seeking blended into it and it looks sooooooo much easier to understand and follow. But my gut feeling is i am going to face a wall of opposistion from the other side.
Could you please direct me to where i could read a bit more about the Shared Parenting Order (aka Shared Care) you mentioned in the previous post.
And would the section on here about representing yourself in court be applicable to attending a variation of an existing order? I know the principles are the same it was more of the approach i should take i am thinking about (and if anyone reading this has any experience in going through the variation process then any pointers would really be appreciated).
Just to add, in my ealier post i mentioned i had contacted my ex last october re; the easter holidays as following the current order dates for easter would mean i would miss the school holidays due to the wording of it (ie; easter from Friday following easter at 5.30 pm to the following saturday 6.00 pm) so i sent a suggestion to the ex for me to take the same amount of time but apply it to the fisrt week of the holidays this was meet firstly by her saying she hadnt even thought about christmas, then when i asked in november if it could be just penciled in, i was accused of Pushing her !!!!!!?? And after xmas when i tried i just got "i havent looked at my rota!" since then i have had no reply, , , , , , , , until today when she said she had spoke to her solicitor and suggested i take the first week ( i thought i had already suggested that? AHH no wait theres a catch!!) but i take a day and 1 3/4 hours less than the actual order states i should have my daughter at easter. Or alternatively she doesnt mind going to court" NOT A PROBLEM" she stated.

So thats where i am at at the moment, i would appreciate any pointers you could give,and thank you ALL again for your ealier replies and advice. 🙂

Hi DAG,

Good to hear back from you. Its certainly an excitingly nervous feeling you get when submitting something that is clearly so important.

In answer to the Shared Care, it depends what you want to read about if its just general information:
http://www.sharedparenting.org.uk/ <-- Are relatively good
http://www.thecustodyminefield.com/12.html <-- Are often what i use as my Bible and cover the Legality aspect, along with legal reading, free reading and other things i've learned through combined experience

Hope this helps.

In terms of the opposition your main stance is that simplifying contact is going to be beneficial to your child and even the Mother. Working around .30's and .45's is not a reasonable expectation and indeed given the current level of Contact, a Shared Residence order is the most logical, significant and beneficial Order that should be considered.

Evening Yoji
Thankyou for the links I will take a look at them both and I appreciate the support. Just a quick question,can I ask for the shared parenting order to be included even tho the ex has residency ?

And I would just like to say to all the dads on here who are having a difficult time over contact with their kids is to stay strong and focused because for as long as it takes when our kids have families of their own they can proudly say to them how devoted we were in trying to give them love and security in their lives.

Hi DAG,

Even if you go for Shared Care as long as she receives the Child Benefit she will still under many sections of Law be the Resident Parent. Thus it isn't affected. The easiest way of thinking is that it is recognised a Child has TWO homes.

🙂

Good morning

Thanks for reply Yoji that makes sense.

Just an update nothing much, as I have made an application to vary an order I knew Cafcass would be contacting both sides to get an understanding of the reasons for this.
However I received a call to arrange a convenient time for the Cafcass worker to call me back to discuss the application and they introduced themselves as the SOCIAL WORKER who would be conducting the report to advise the court?
Just a question.
I thought Cafcass workers wer'nt Social Workers?
In all their information they state they are not Social Workers but Family Court Advisors.
Is there a shortage of Cafcass workers so Social Workers are filling in?
Just seems odd!
I will ask when they contact me again but that's not till next week.
My last contact with Cafcass was back in 2007 so it might have changed...?

This may help - under the section 'what we do'

Cafcass

Cheers I must have read over that bit.
When Cafcass were involved before back in 06/07 they stressed they wer'nt social workers. So it just seemed strange to introduce themselves as a SO .
Thank again

Hi just thought i would give you an update

Last week i had a Half hour interview over the phone with Cafcass (Yes Half an Hour to the minute) during the interview i was asked my reasons for applying to the court for a variation to the existing order, I gave my reasons of wanting to simplify and extend the contact order as any attempt to do this with Mum had been ignored or dismissed. Cafcass continued they had contacted all local authorities SS, police etc and they had no concerns for our daughter in fact after reading the original Section 7 report they couldnt understand why they were involved in the first place!! (ERM HELLO because of the mother STOPPING CONTACT and making FALSE ACCUSATIONS!!) They can see our daughter has a fantastic loving relatioship with both parents and is a well balanced child. (Yes we know its mum who stands in the way :whistle: )
They said they had already spoke to Mum (What! I thought they would have spoke to me first? Anyway) Mum was quoted as saying " I would never stand in the the way of contact between ******* and her Dad in fact i positively encourage It" (Our daughter does'nt need encouragement, she needs her Mum to stop using her as a weapon) Whether Cafcass bought this line im not sure but i continued to read them Mums response through her solicitor to the offer of mediation last year and gave an example of obstructive behaviour. (Cafcass made no comment)
I was asked about any proposals i had to put forward, so i went through them one by one explaining the current orders short falls (my ealier post give examples of the order in place at the moment) and giving them examples of simplifying it and at the same time extending contact.
At this point cafcass jumped in and asked specifically why i was asking for a 3rd week during the school summer holidays "wasn't i satisfied with the 2 weeks i already had along with midweek and weekend contact?".
(What midweek and weekend contact!!!!!????????????????)
I then explained in 5 years we hadnt been allowed any extra contact over any of the school holidays. That Mum and her solicitor had written to me (after the final hearing) stating school holidays cancelled out normal contact and only the stated hoilday time contact would take place as it was MUMS TIME, surely i understood thats how the order reads!!!!
No, my belief along with my solicitor at that time, saw it as Holidays being in ADDITION to the first part of the order which was for Midweek and Weekend contact, put in place back in January 07, then after the section 7 report the order being finalised in November 07 was to ADD the school holiday contact dates, as the final order reads" IN ADDITION" the following hoidays will take place.
Cafcass were suprised at this so i asked if they thought it was right?
(This is just another reason why i thought the order needs varing because one parent interprets it in their best interests over the other.)
At this point Cafcass back tracked and said "well we cant possibly comment because we are not a judge or a panel!"
Next they asked would i be willing to go on a PARENTING COURSE. Not because we think that you arn't good parents, no its because there is conflict between MUM and DAD and you need to know how to diffuse it so it doesnt affect the child involved . I had no problem with this so agreed to go.
They then asked if i thought there was Conflict between Mum and Dad?!?!?(Did'nt you just tell me there was?)
Yes there is i said but only over contact. (Hhhmmmm Im getting deja vu is the ex suggesting Bulling Intimadation Harassment etc etc, why do some Mums always resort to rolling this old chestnut out?!)
I went on to say in the past 18 months i had only spoke to Mum Twice over the phone about contact and it only resulted in me being verbally abused and slagged off so as in all other instances of contact between us i use either letters email or txt to Mum or her solicitor as then i can not be accused of anything and i did point out even though we only live 10 minutes away from each other our paths have never crossed in over 5 years so I pointed out conflict was more of a difference of opinion than anything else.
Then came the offer of Mediation, again i agreed to this as i had already explained it would have been my first choice anyway.
Hoepfully they added, by going to mediation and parenting class it will avoid having to go to a final hearing to sort this out. (What! you must be kidding the Ex won't be told what to do by anyone she has to be in control thats the whole point) Anyway they said they would forward us both a copy of the statement along with their recommendation to the court and they would meet us in court on wednesday. (ps i havent received mine yet do you think i should conact them for my copy as im in court wednesday?)

Thats where we are at the moment, hoping common sense prevails on wednesday and my daughter and i can resume a normal relaxed more natural relationship without needless pedantic measures.

Im self representing and have got everthing together as much as i can, im not really looking forward to the whole experience again seem to have spent a life time trying to get some normality for us all and keeping diaries letters txt emails for evidence is life sapping!!!
.
Just like to add a THANK YOU to Yoji and actd your suggestions for simplification and points to put in my statement make it really easy to follow and THANKS to the guys at CLC who i rang the other week and ran my proposal and statement past, you gave me a real positive response.

Ok i have gone on long enough but will let you know how it goes over the next few days

:woohoo:

Hi DAG,

Very well done so far sir! 🙂

CAFCASS won't be able to comment, they're impartial (to some extents).

Regarding the statement, if you mean this Wednesday, you need to get onto the Court for CAFCASS's number and request a copy to be faxed over to you [somehow] or for the Court to prepare a copy of their Report that you can collect.

You do need to know the "Mothers Position" part of that report. You will then know her objections and or "limits" so to speak and prepare possible arguments against should they arise.

Oh and just one more thing... PIPS is in my opinion only suitable for Parents who have never been involved in their childs life, or who are a parent returning after a long absence from parenting. But thats just my two cents.

Evening Yoji
Thankyou for your reply I can see you are busy.
I have the name of the Cafcass worker doing the report and their number should I contact them directly for a copy or should I just contact the court?
And yes its this Wednesday. I expected the report before now.
As regards the PIPs my feelings are the same as yours, but I agreed to the suggestion as it may display to the court that I am reasonable.
When I told my daughter what I may have to do I had to pick her up off the floor she was in fits of laughter.
She's 12 and she said Ive looked after her since before she was born .
It's a bit late for me to learn how to be a parent now if I haven't learnt already 😀
I can't argue with that!

Hello Dads

Sorry not had time to give you an up date about court proceedings before but here goes.
(This is the Short Edition :unsure: )

I represented myself which was daunting but i would definately recommend it if you feel you can remain calm, collected and not come across as attacking or confrontational.
Have everything you want to say prepared and documented in duplicate as then all parties can have copies of statements/proposals/evidence etc (I had 1 Cafcass 3 Magistrates 1 Court Legal Advisor and the other parties).
I took along a colleauge whom upon my request came in to the hearing under Mackenzie law as a second pair of ears and to give me moral support. Dont be affraid to ask the Court Legal Advisor at any point if you are unsure of any of the proceedings and need a little light shedding on any matters during or after the hearing (As some times it may seem overwhelming) the CLA were very helpfull throughout.
And definitely the guide on here to representing yourself in court and all the advice the guys on here can give you goes along way to helping you, in hindsight i wish i had found this site years ago represented myself back then and saved myself thousands!!! :woohoo: Thankyou everyone so far for your advice i will however be back for more in the near future.

Ok, on the morning of the direction hearing i received a letter from ex solicitor saying they had not been served the application/statement for the hearing and they felt the proceedings were totally unfounded and due to this they would be seeking to claim back all costs from me if i did not withdraw the application immeadiately!!!

When i got to court i met with the cafcass officer their report didnt contain any of the points i raised regarding my requests for more contact, issues with contact and the complexity of the order. It read like a text book report (Mum happy, Child Happy at school, Dad and Child have loving relationship) They asked if i had anything to add, so i gave them a copy of my proposal and breakdown for simplfying and varing the order they took this through to the other parties and came back 5 minutes later with these encouraging words "You are not going to get anywhere today or any day for that matter with your Ex-wife,well she will not move on anything you have put down here she says you see enough of your daughter! Im sorry!" (What?!!! Yes thats how the CO left it on those words they got up shoke my hand and left)
So when asked in court Cafcass said they saw no need for themselves to be involved any further! (What a waste of time and effort i at least expected them to try to meadiate on the day not just hold their hands up and shrug their shoulders)
Saying that when it got rolling having 3 Magistrates and a CLA taking it a all in was a bonus (all other proccedings over the years have been just before one judge in the local county court).
The Exs solicitor firstly claimed their client had not and had never been served with a copy of the Application and they didnt understand why they were there, the first time they knew anything re: an application being made was when cafcass contacted their client, this was such a shock to her as everthing seemed to be working just fine!!
The CLA pointed out immediately, a copy of the application had been posted directly to the ex by the court on so-n-so date and for her Not to have received it it was highly unlikely!!!!! :}
This more or less set out the path the ex was taking, they at first said they were happy with how the contact order was at present, then low and behold they said they wanted the order changing because they thought the present order was to generous and their client felt contact should be reduced!!! (I just pointed to the letter they sent the previous year stating their client was" Happy and Content with contact and saw no need to discuss the matter further"! Ahhhhhh :whistle: )
I gave my statement and defence as to why i had applied for a variation of the order, handed over my proposal of simplyfying and extending contact and a breakdown of the extra contact i was seeking, they suggested an adjurnment of half an hour to give them time to look over the current contact order and proposals i had given. (The ex and her solicitor were Not 🙂 at this.)

After we came back the Magistrates all agreed the order was out of date, needed simplfying and as our daughter was much older the order needed addressing as to her needs now. They couldnt see any reason why the other side had not after 6 years come to a more natural way of dealing and extending contact therefore if they couldnt agree today to the proposed changes it would have to go further. They recommended meadiation i agreed as i had stated this was what i would have prefered rather than coming back to court, the ex just kept reffusing so they gave up on that, then they asked if i was prepared to go on a PIPs course, i replied yes, the ex even reffused this suggestion, until that is the Magistrates Ordered her to attend!!!! They suggested
co-operation would be much easier. (oops!)
So the out come so far, we both have to attend a PIPs course before -/-/- date. The other side have to submit a Statement to the Court in reply to my proposals by -/-/- date and we will be back in court on -/-/- to see if they are willing to move nearer to any agreement.
IF NOT it will go to a Final Hearing and they will make the Final decision as they believe the current contact order is to complicated and out of date!!!!! ((Yipeee im not going mad :silly: )

All in all it was a good result, it would have been nice to get an agreement on the day, but the court actually got to see what i have been up against all these years and how unreasonable the other side have been and they agree change is needed and if i cant be attained by agreement then they will step in.
I now dont feel like im going mad and what im requesting is not unreasonable but normal.

Ps as i was leaving the CLA stopped me and commended me on how i came across to the court and how it would be so much easier if parents could speak for themselves as i had done, instead of legal representatives , they could sense how much i loved our daughter. ( as you can imagine when i got to a safe distance i burst in to tears) :whistle: Emotional rollercoaster :woohoo:
So for now just preparing as best i can for the next stage and will let you know how i get on.

Thank you

Well done DAG!

Whilst it would have been nice to have the situation resolved in that one hearing, it does appear that the court now has a fair idea of what you've been up against and, sooner or later, this will be resolved to your satisfaction. Your ex sounds like the type of person who will drag this out as long as she can, but if you can get her to mediation and have her come to an agreement on your proposal, make sure that the details of this agreement go back to court to be enshrined within a new contact order 😉

Maybe it's just me, but - having read your posts and those of a few other dads recently - I'm becoming quite concerned at the dimissive and/or apathetic attitude of a growing number of CAFCASS officers. I'm all for transparency and impartiality, but some officers seem to be working to personal agendas and are, for the want of a better word, biased... 😡

FM '70

An excellent day in court.

I agree with FM - a few years ago, my dealings with cafcass were nothing but positive, but more abd more, there seem to be stories of unsatisfactory handling of cases.

Hi DAG,

Thats fabulous :-).

As FM states, make sure any agreement in mediation is put into a legally binding order, and equally, if you do go to mediation, make them aware of that too.

Everything sounds really positive though 🙂

Afternoon Dads
Thanks for your comments, yes I definitely feel more confident about getting things sorted this time round just hearing the magistrates say change was needed after all this time was encouraging.
As for mediation, there is going to be none at all as the exs solicitor repeatedly refused so it will be sorted in court one way or other.
My daughters having a bit of a hard time at moment just having her ear bent being made to feel disloyal but she said she will be ok.
Oh and after 7 years of paying ex maintenance direct to her she's got CSA involved now so I'm waiting outcome of that. (apparently she wants more money)
Happy Days 😉

Well, you can work out what they would expect you to pay. I'd stop paying her anything now as the csa will calculate from the day they became involved and you'd have to prove what you're paying now should be taken into account - put the money into a separate account.

Evening actd
CSA rang me as ex wants a review, so they did a calculation over the phone after I gave them the particulars they required and it seems I may be paying to much. I did tell them I had already calculated the amount I should be paying using the tools they provided online, and I had all bank statements proving every payment over the past 6 years.
They said all they wanted was for me to send in my last two payslips for Feb n March to verify my earnings and if I wished after their final calculation I can then use them to pay the ex and as and when I get the extra contact I can incorporate that and get a further reduction in payments.
Not sure on what course to take as I have never considered using CSA before
What are the pros n cons?
They are writing to me to let me know the exact amount I should be paying I said for now I'm happy paying what I do for now but will consider my options after I see it in black and white.

I'd pay through the CSA for the moment as your ex has requested this. However, beyond this, two options spring to mind - either put the extra into a savings account for your daughter for when she's older, or use the extra you are prepared to pay as leverage to increase your contact - buying extra contact isn't something you should have to do, but if you ex is playing unfair, then use any advantage you have.

Hi just an update as to where I am up to.
I've attended the parenting course PiPs that was suggested to me by the court, and tho I was sceptical as to the benefit this would have for my situation, I found it really thought provoking. Basically it focuses on the effect to children when there is conflict between parents over contact. And even tho over the years I had already been using the methods of communication they suggested it still made you stop and think!
"Could I do anything different so it doesn't effect my kids?"
There were 8 other angry individuals on the course ( all the opposite [censored] GULP!) but by the time it had finished the majority said it really made them think about how they would act in the future.
The Cafcass SW (Female) who took the course opened up by making the following statement , , , The courts and system are definitely biased toward the Mother, the system is out of date! It is going to change! And Cafcass needs to change its stance towards fathers by recognising them as equally important! It is going to change!

I thought that made a refreshing change.

She went on to say if you are not happy with how Cafcass handle your case/report make a complaint ask them to carry out a review ask for another case worker to look at your case.
So it seems slowly but surely it might become fairer for Dads. 🙂
I don't know if the other side will appreciate the course time will tell 😉

Excellent, sounds like it was time well spent, and good advice from Cafcass 🙂

😀 Awesome, glad it went OK at PIPs.

Nearly there now

Evening All just a quicky,

Im back in court on wednesday for the next stage in varying and extending the current contact order. :boohoo: :sick: :pinch:

I rang the court today as i should have received a copy of the exs reply to my proposals, a week has now past since the deadline for this reply to have been filed with the court and they say they have still recieved nothing (they have had over 8 weeks to do this reply)!!!! ( Why am i not suprised!!) :huh:
Im thinking its another tactic to stall proceedings. Because of the length of time its took for it to return to court since the initial hearing we have already lost out on extra time over the easter break, June half term holidays and bankholidays, i cant help feeling this latest delay is to try to stall the summer holidays being sorted, just to mess them up as well.
I have no doubt that come wednesday the Solicitor magically produces it before proccedings start with some pathetic excuse as to why they werent filed, as this has been the case in the past with just about every deadline. ( How do they get away with it, i thought they called it a PROFESSION because they ARE PROFESSIONALS and are not supposed to be under handed :dry: )
Anyway we will just have to wait and see.

One thing while i remember, i forgot to mention this before.
When i spoke to Cafcas at the application hearing (Cafcas are not involved, after their report they said there were no issues for them to over see and withdrew from the proccedings) the cafcas sw said that in my proposal one aspect i was asking for was a " Shared Parenting/Care Order" they went on to say by me requesting this it would be viewed by the court as a " Direct Challenge to mums Residency" and it would look bad on my part.
I replied by saying this was not the case and it was not a challenge but a request for the court to recognise both parents as equally important and have the same parental responsibilities and consideration and by no means was i trying to take away or challenge Mums Residency, as this had never been an issue in the first place and still wasnt!!!
I tried to reason with them over this issue with the information i had looked up through the links recomended on here about shared parenting/care, but they STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST IT! ( In fact they spat the dummy out and had a good old tantrum about it, and said they wouldnt advocate such an Order in any of their cases!!!?????) So as you can understand i was a little stun'd from their reaction and omitted it from my proposal. (I do think, in my opinion, MUMS!! the word when it comes to cafcas they really dont want to rock that boat!!) Just thought id share that experience with you to see if anyone else had come across anything similar .

DAG

Just one point from your PiP course:

She went on to say if you are not happy with how Cafcass handle your case/report make a complaint ask them to carry out a review ask for another case worker to look at your case.

Could this be the way to go with your experience?

Hello actd

With how I feel after yesterday I feel like giving up and just resigning to the fact nothing is going to change unless its on thier terms.

After waiting 12 wks for a reply to my proposals to be filed with the court I have heard nothing.
As i predicted, the ex's solicitor handed me a Proposal just before going in before the magistrates, no explanation they just said that's what my client wants! And walked off!
We were only given a 15 minute hearing with different magistrates so I had to start from basics because they weren't aware of the nature of the application!
Basically an attempt was made to rail roaded me in to accepting the last minute proposal by her solicitor!
The magistrates were of no help, her solicitor just kept going on about how accomodating his client was and how she looses out on time with our daughter because she has to work 2 Sunday mornings a month. (She only works 16hrs a week, 2 days midweek then a Sunday morning every 2 weeks). He then produced their proposal which totally changes the whole structure of contact with my daughter and expected me to accept it.
They have proposed changing the contact to
Friday to Sunday every other weekend
Keeping Wednesday night as it is at 5.30-8pm (2 1/2 hours)
half term if my weekend Friday -Wednesday
If not Wednesday-Sunday
1 week at Easter but his client gets the Easter weekend regardless if it encroachs on my time.
Xmas no change
And I can have an xtra week of the summer holidays as long as its changed to the weeks they want .
I told the court I had only just been handed that proposal and didn't want to make a decision until I had considered it.
My proposals were completely ignored even tho mine don't deviate from the current order. I tried to reply but was told they only had a 15 minute hearing in place as the court was already 2 hours behind with cases.
So I asked for it to be ajdourned, the other side objected saying they thought it was a fair proposal and i should accept it now! Or come back later in the day to agree it.
Thankfully it was adjourned until 4wks time for a final hearing so I can consider thier offer.

The thing is i have had a quick look last night at it and actually they are giving nothing just moving it around!!
What I don't understand is they kept saying I had plenty of contact and the current order works for them!
I actually only get 72 DAYS a Year!!!!!
So why are they trying to pull a fast one by changing it totally!!?

I'm exhausted , frustrated and confused and at a loss!
I feel I need to talk to someone I'm scared.

What they are offering would mean our weekly contact would go to fortnightly
With only 2 1/2 hours on Wednesday nights in between. And they will have got rid of our long weekend the last weekend of the month! And actually they are offering no extra over the other holidays.
At the moment I get no bank holidays/no Xmas days/alternate new year which I have to take our daughter back then pick up on new years day to finish the holiday/no special days not even fathers day my daughter only gets to see my extended family grandparents etc in my contact time as her mum won't allow her to see them when she has her.
(Oh that is only my Estranged father who she contacted when we separated to meet his grandaughter!. He lives overseas and now visits when he comes over. I haven't had a relationship with him for more than 7 years in total my whole life. It was done by her because she thought it would get to me and wind me up!! Lets hope he's a better Grandfather than he was a Farther!)
So as you see I'm restricted in what I actually get now.
And in six years they are never open to agreement unless its beneficial to them
🙁

Firstly, don't give up because that will give your ex the idea that she can do what she wants (such as reducing contact further).

I will ask the CCLC to pop on and give an opinion, but I would suggest that you write down clearly what contact you have at the moment, compared with what they are offering (so you can show that they aren't offering anything extra) and what you are requesting. Make it as simple and clear as possible - assume that you will only get a 15 minute hearing next time as well so you need to get the information across as clearly as possible.

Actd thankyou for your reply I do really appreciate your thoughts and advice
I'm not feeling at my strongest at present infact overwhelmingly anxious!
I may have mentioned this earlier in my posts, but the ex's solicitor is really arrogant and loves to intimidate and berate you in his approach so that already puts me on the back foot. Plus this time he refused and objected to my request for Mckenzie friend and it was upheld.
I have already started putting together and comparing present contact and their proposal and they are actually offering an increase of only 10 days over the school holiday periods ( 7 during the summer 1 extra at each half term).
This would increase my daughters over night contact from 72 nights at present to only 82 nights per year. It's pathetic! That's not what I started a family for when I became a Dad to be disregarded and expected to accept limited contact with our daughter!

I will do what you suggest and put it all down to try to get that point across.

Another thing is last year when I requested mediation to be considered by my ex her solicitors reply was "their client was happy and content with the current contact order and see's no need to discuss contact any further!"
And on more than 3 times in the past 2 court appearances he has expressed and emphasized how Happy his client is with how the current contact order works.
Do you think I should point this out to the court and ask "why then have they offered me a new proposal which totally changes the structure of the current order if their client is happy with contact as it is at present"??!
It does seem contradictory to bang on how its all been plaine sailing for them and they have no issues with how contact is at present but then Now , she needs to change it to suit her :woohoo:
Surely if she wants to change the order she should make an application to do so herself!!?
Not use my application as her platform!?
Anyway thankyou so much again and I will look out for clcc's thoughts on it.
Kind regards DAG

Dear DAG

There are a lot of issues that we would need to discuss with you in order to advise fully. Therefore we would be grateful if you could contact us to discuss your case in more detail.

You can contact us via our webchat facility which is open from 9am-6pm Monday to Friday and can be found at www.childrenslegalcentre.com. We also have a freephone legal advice line which is open 8am-8pm Monday to Friday and is 0808 8020 008.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely

CORAM CHILDREN’S LEGAL CENTRE

Thank you cclc for getting in touch, as soon as I get chance I will contact you.
And thank you actd for putting cclc on to me 🙂
Kind regards DAG

Morning all

Firstly I'd like to thank CCLC for the advice you gave me last week regarding my proposals for future contact and it seems I'm not being unreasonable in what I am asking for. You have given me the lift I needed to carry on
Thank you 🙂
Thank you to Actd 😉

Ok if I could just ask for a bit of advice on how to reply to a letter received today from the exs solicitor regarding their counter proposals for future contact arrangements.
Basically they want to change the whole order to suit them even tho they had it suited to their needs 6 years ago! ( ps I've made the application for varying the order!)
The only thing they have offered is 10 days extra per year!

So how can I reply ( the wording etc) stating I have considered and I don't agree to their proposals without giving them the opportunity to twist and distort my reply when we return to court in 2 weeks.
As they have done this in the past, I think its called propaganda!!

Any suggestions gratefully received
DAG

Hi DAG,

I think it would be worth checking the CCLC's website and see if you can have a webchat with them (mention that they have given advice on here) as I think it probably needs a more interactive approach with them in this instance.

Evening

Its been a rollercoaster ride over the past fortnight.

I have contacted cclc with regard to the reply proposals handed to me at the last hearing and my reply to these, basically it was the same as i had already prepared so it was good to get a second opinion. My reply has since been sent to the other side.

But unfortunately recent developments have meant i have had to further contact cclc for advice and also the court itself. Which in turn i have been advised by both to write directly to the court and make them aware of the situation past and present so it could be considered before returning for the next hearing.

But today i have learnt the hearing is to be adjourned at the request of the other side to a later date.

I have been advised to attend the schedueled hearing for the adjournment to ask for my requests regarding holidays be heard and arranged before the summer holidays start , because if this isnt sorted this week i will loose out this year on any extention to the summer holidays as they start next week.
Because its took so long since the initial application hearing and already having to adjourn the last hearing its took almost 5 months to get this far and we haven't sorted anything yet, we have already lost out at easter, half term and now it looks like the summer is the next victim.
It probably would have been easier waiting till my daughter reaches 16 or tells her mum to [censored] out!!

This whole thing effects everthing for us as a family for yet another year! We have not been able to organise anything so far for the kids as we dont know if we are going to get my daughter for any extra time so we haven't even looked at going away if we can afford to. Its limbo all over again. And my daughter has had enough , she has been so upset these past months, it really is now taking its toll emotionally.

Thank you CClC for your help you have been invaluable and will continue to be im sure . And thanks guys and gals (goonergaj partner) 🙂 for your words of support.

We will just have to wait and see what happens next.

Hi DAG,

Good to hear that things are nevertheless still progressing 🙂

If the hearing has had a request to be adjourned, what is the reason? Normally it needs to be a valid reason to force an adjournment.

In terms of the hearing, if you disagree with the adjournment, go ahead and say your piece. But in some instances, the Court can/could vacate the hearing (set an adjournment) even if you don't agree/refuse.

I feel really sorry that everything is being messed around (and being allowed to) so badly.

Good luck 🙂

Hello

Just an update , rescheduled for a fortnight . But no agreement for holiday extension the CLA suggested contacting exs solicitor to try to negotiate my requests. 😮 ! They apologized and went on to say it was the most problematic case they had ever encounted!!
Well that instills confidence I thought, , , , we've been living with it. :pinch:
So its another wait. But moving.

Just when you thought , , , , , , , , , , !

After the adjourment of last week the hearing was rescheduled for next week. In the meantime the court asked that we liase over the summer holidays after writing again to the otherside I received a call from the exs solicitor yesterday stating he was seeking a further adjourment (its the first time they have contacted me directly in 6yrs) for next weeks hearing due to his clients ill health!
He went on to say his client couldn't agree to my proposal for extending my holiday contact as at this time with his client being unwell she feels the need to spend the time whilst off work bonding with our daughter!! ( Shes 12 if her mum hasn't bonded at this stage in her life there's something wrong!!!) Yes i know its another stalling tatic and im gutted as I know my daughter will be.
My partner had organised her holidays and the kids hols with thier dad to accommodate our time off but know its thrown all our plans into disarray and we will now not get my daughter for over another week!
I have written this morning to the court objecting to a further adjourment and included these latest developments.
I have also written to the otherside informing them of this.
This is in the hope I can bring it before the court to at least recue some time back so we can organise a trip abroad before the end of next week.

🙁 DAG

Hi just updating you on the progress i have made so far.

Sorry not got back sooner but with the school holidays, work comitments and unforseen circumstances things have been a bit mad :pinch:

My last post was prior to going back in to court. So heres an update.

Even thought the other side tried to get yet another adjournment just days before, the court went ahead with the hearing and they brought in a Judge from outside the circuit to preside over the hearing.

Long story short, it went really well the Judge was excellent and he put in place an emergency contact order so i could collect my daughter earlier as the otherside had not agreed to this previously before coming back to court . So even though we had missed half of the first week we at least got an extension to some degree.

The Ex did not appear only her solicitor!!
This REALLY did not go down well with the Judge neither did her solicitors attitude or his explaination and arguments as to why he had not come to some kind of agreement over the holidays not even the fact that neither his client or himself could offer any reasonable explanation why contact had not either;

A, Progressed Natrually over the past 6 years!

B, Been agreed Varied and Extended at the first hearing in March!

C, Why were there so many obstructions by his client and themselves!

D, Where his client was and what was wrong with her!

The judge assured us he will personally return and preside over the case until it is finalised, there will be an extention to contact and never again will I have to be unsure of whether i am going to get my daughter for the holidays.
The contact will no longer be able to be interpreted for ones benefit over the other.
He said there was No real reasons why contact was continually hinderd over the past years other than the other parties own personal adgenda and he was saddend of how long my daughter and I had had to put up with it.

There was more so this is the short version.

All in all it was a great day. I felt like a load had been lifted and for the first time in all these years finally we might be getting somewhere and i wasnt going MAD :woohoo: as some one could actually see and do something about it for us.

Now just waiting for the next hearing, not long now.

Lastly thank you again to all at CCLC for letting me bend your ear and letting me run past you my statements etc and for your input.

😉

Excellent news. I'll pass this onto the CCLC as well 🙂

:cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 🙂 :cheer: 🙂 :silly: 🙂 :cheer: :p

Hello Dads

Well after six years and many visit's to court finally a result!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂

As you may have read in my previous posts it has been a long journey to get to this point today.

Firstly to fight this long with regards to continued contact but also for it to be extended, seeking a contact order that wasn't overly complex which could not be interpreted for the benifit of one parent (the mother). This is what we all have had to live with, but NO longer!!!

It was a very long day in court and to be honest im a little brain dead at the moment or as i have mentioned before in our house we call it "Court Lag" 😆

The original defined contact order made 6 years ago was a nightmare, confusing and complex in its nature. ( read my earlier posts its to long to re-write).

We now have a simple to follow contact arrangement which cannot be messed with.

Firstly : I have a Shared Care Arrangement :woohoo: 🙂 It actually reads "Child X shall Live with Father on so and so occasion etc "
So now I'm not just classed as weekend Dad, I really am recognised as "Live in Dad" at last!! My daughter just laughs at me and says im crazy. :silly:

2, For the avoidance of doubt All school holidays shared equally without unecessary criteria. ( Yes!! Half of all holidays 50/50, two quarters each , thats as far as my mathmatical equations go :} )

3, Every alternate weekend from Friday after school until Monday morning when i drop my daughter at school.
(For the first time in over 6 years i have been able to take my daughter to school, she was 6 years old then. Even though she is in High school now she indulged me and didnt mind me dropping her off at the school gates and blowing her a kiss as we said goodbye 😆 😆 😆 😆 !

4, Wednesdays stay the same 5-8pm. ( I did originally want her overnight mid week but instead got the extra night on sunday then she goes to school from our home monday morning as this would make it easier for my daughter with school and not having to lugg around all her school stuff mid week)

5, It is agreed that extra contact be agreed from time to time in accordance with our daughters feelings and wishes.

6, For the avoidance of doubt in the event either parent decide to take a holiday abroad the passport shall be made available without hinderence or unecessary criteria.

Thats it its that simple!

It did take 5 1/2 hours to get to that conclusion as the ex just kept digging her heals in. Until i think the final threat from the judge of returning at a future date for a contested hearing in which she would be expected to take the stand and be cross questioned!! 🙁 and giving her reasons for not agreeing to the proposals or not letting things progress naturally over the past 6 years and it being taken out of our hands and a decision being made for us by the court.
It seemed to work 🙂

I know in my original proposal and posts i mentioned that my daughter and myself were not keen on the alternate weekend contact.
Well i had to make some concessions myself to get agreement but after talking this through with my daughter she is over the moon with the result and basically said we wont die from not seeing each other each weekend and it just means every other weekend she can just punish me alittle more by make me run round ragged for longer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh no iv created a monster!!! And my partner and kids said they to can now organise thier lives around it better so they all get to spend longer periods together.

All in all we are relieved and over the moon with the end result. Tired and emotional a bit ragged round the edges but worth the fight!

Im sure there are other tribulations to come but at long last we know where we stand.

I would like to say a MASSIVE thank you to all you guys on here who have given me comfort support and advice and kept us going these last 9 months. Along with my family and friends, you all have been a fantastic support and listening ear.

Again CCLC undoubtedly invaluable thank you to all who have listened and given me advice on my preparation, i will give you a call and give you the end result if you have time to listen me bend your ear 😀 !!

Im filling up so going to leave it there for know.

One last thing. I was told along time ago by my old solicitor " Its a Marathon not a Sprint"!!! Man was he right.

But its worth it!

Dads keep on struggling on our kids are worth the fight and love that we show them will only make them more secure as they grow.

Kind regards DAG

Congratulations that's great news,the fight is always worth it no matter how hard its been.

And your right this Site is a massive help, it helped me no end when I was going through it.

And I know full well the after court lag, you feel numb and light headed.

Darren

Lump in my throat reading that 🙂

Lump in my throat reading that 🙂

I'll admit to the same when I read it to too, it hits you as you remember the battle you had, and feel happy that the system works when it needs too.

You will now be able to plan and do things with your daughter and be a dad again instead of someone fighting for the rite to be one.

Darren

Well done DAG! This is a fantastic result and, as Darren states, it's evidence that the sysytem works. Eventually.

Six years is far too long for anyone to have to wait for a fair ruling. I imagine that this could have been resolved to DAG's satisfaction a lot earlier if courts were actually willing to impose genuine penalties on resident parents for being obstructive. This kind of situation will keep happening until resident parents know that there's a genuine consequence to unacceptable and obstructive behaviour.

I think solicitors who behave in a similar manner should be held in contempt of court and face some kind of penalty too.

Rant over.

Hi
I came across your story in the forum and I felt really chuffed for you and inspired me to try to do something about my situation. Well done for fighting through and finally getting what you wanted and I hope things are still going well with you and your daughter 🙂
A contact order has been in place for my daughter who's 8 for 4 years now. I see her every other weekend (Fri - Sun evening) and some of the holidays but not half. Like your original order, alternate weekends stop in school holidays so if my weekend falls when the school holidays have just started for example, I miss out and there's quite often big gaps of 20 odd days in contact at certain points of the year.
The order does state at the end 'and any additional contact that can be agreed' but so far my ex has agreed to what equates to 3 or 4 days over the last 4 years. She'll either flatly refuse and say they have plans even though I ask months in advance or for example I'll ask for an additional day and she'll let me see her for an hour or just half the day so that she can be seen to be 'showing willing'. I never get a 'yeah that's fine' and don't think I ever will. She has to be in control similar to your ex.
I usually collect my daughter at 4 on a Friday and I've asked for some time now to collect straight from school but my ex again flatly refuses. The school are useless at keeping me informed and I never see any homework set. Christmas and Easter is another issue as I've never been able to spend them with my daughter since she was a baby.
I've spent an awful lot of money on legal fees in the past with the divorse and agreeing a contact order so I'm not in a hurry to go back to court again but she refuses to meet or try mediation.
My question really is is it worth applying for a variation in the order to ask for half all school holidays, if Bank holidays or inset days are either side of my weekend then I should have extended contact, alternate Christmasses and the right to collect from school or is the court likely to dismiss it and say 'well it already states additional contact in the order so sort it out between you'.
I really feel like I'm not seeing enough of her and can't influence her upbringing enough and I think it's wrong that dads should just have to accept the time they're given in the order and that's it.

Hi there

I think it’s reasonable to ask for the existing order to be varied, although it’s impossible to predict outcomes, most bog standard orders include pick ups from school, shared Christmas and birthdays and equal share of holidays.

Think of why the changes would be better for your child and use that to argue your case. For example, picking her up from school will give you the opportunity to get more involved in her education, so that you can help her with homework and have some input into school events and activities.

If you haven’t already done so, it might be a good idea to put your requests in writing, by text or emails that you have a record of her refusal to agree extra time.

It’s not necessary to instruct a solicitor to make an application, self representing is doable and we have had many members that have done so with much success.

Mediation is your first step, it try corresponding with her first, if she won’t budge then instigate mediation as a first step.

Best of luck