[Solved] Judge's refusal to look at evidence.

Yoda. I do understand. I get that there is too much evidence. But I did explain in the first hearing that there was a lot of it and I was granted permission to submit it, only to be told that it won't be looked at. I did submit it at the right time - it was requested to be submitted one week before the hearing and that's the day I took it to them. The judges reason for not looking at the evidence was that these are just things that I "think". Recorded admissions, documentary evidence, all ignored. They aren't things that I think - they're facts. This isn't someone that is "doing their job".

I get that given time people (under normal circumstances) would do their job. But I was told in the very first sentence by the judge that I have no chance of being granted residency. That the best I can hope for is visitation rights. That my ex gets to decide whether I can have unsupervised contact (I honestly thought that the courts would intervene and stop the alienation and frustration of contact). That the next hearing won't be until February and that a final hearing will be one week later. In other words there will never be a hearing where my side of the story or the evidence I've submitted will be taken into account.

Maybe I'm just too involved and can't see the wood for the trees. Maybe I'm expecting miracles and for someone to wave a magic wand. I don't think I am - I just want someone to look at our case for what it is, and I honestly don't believe, given what I was told, that they will.

Ok, I'm going to take your advice. Please tell me in no uncertain terms, what should I do? What are my next steps? How can I prevent my children from possibly being taken into care or how I can go about getting my side of the story listened to? Because at the moment all I can see is, at best, that I will have visitation rights at the end of all this and our children will be left in an abusive and dangerous environment.

Hi Paul,
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We have spoken about your case, and I remember saying from the start that getting residency probalby wouldn't happen, judges don't like to move children from the mother even when there is strong evidence that would support it, they would try and work with the mother to keep the children where they are until they feel it's a loss cause. Dad's who have managed to get residency have had to get the support of the judge, cafcass and SS without these people on side it's difficult to get anywhere.
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As Yoad has said if you push too hard you will rud these people up the wrong way and then getting them on side is going to be difficult.
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I know that you have evidence that you feel will help your case, and it may well do, but you have gone in too strong and may have rubbed the judge up the wrong way from the start which may have come accross as sour grapes and mud throwing to the judge, which hasn't put them in a good place to look at the evidence. Is this right? no probably not, but it is what it is and that's what you now have to deal with.
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As has already been said, you need to switch focus now and look at getting as much time with your children as possible, if that means supervised contact at the moment then take it, if you don't pursue contact even supervised then this will reflect you in a bad light at the next hearing.
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Take a step back re group and try and play ball with the authorities that are dealing with this case, work with them, ignore the evidence that you have, I know you feel that this will spin your case around but for the moment at least I don't think that it's going to help you.
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It's now time to play ball, follow every instruction from every person that deals with your case, if you are asked to jump you jump even if that is through hoops, drop bringing up about eveidence that you have and how bad a mother your ex is and work on how good a dad you can be, drop the residency side of things and just look at a solid contact agreement......the residency was always going to be a difficult thing to achieve from the start as I'd said in our first phone conversation.
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You are in a bad place at the moment and I can understand that, and you will be angry and upset, but use the energy that you were using to try and prove how bad a mother your ex is and use it to prove how good a dad you are and how commited to seeing your children you are.
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It's hard when you are angry and upset to think straight and know what to do, give it some time and allow things to settle and then re group your thoughts and try and get some contact set up, even if that is in a contact centre, show that you are going to follow the courts instructions.
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Superprouddad has tried to give you some good advice above, take that on board too, your replies to him may have been a little strong worded, and I'm sure he will forgive you for that as you are angry and upset about the result you had from court, please be mindful that when you post here you are asking for the views of others so they are going to give it, you may not like what they have to say, but you have invited our members to comment on your situation, if you don't agree with what they have to say then be respectful in your reply or don't give an answer to what they have said, if you upset our members they won't be keen to reply with advice when you need it most.
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GTTS

I don't think Paul's response was strong worded, I think it's just a reflection of how ridiculous parts of the process can be.

Needing to have permission of your ex to see the child in a supervised contact centre makes no sense whatsoever, that should just happen on request. When I went to mine, I was told that they would need to ask for her permission before allowing me to take pictures of the child, while at the same time charging me £180 for the privilege. It's just moronic.

But like got-the-tshirt just said, it's not about whether it's right or wrong, it is what it is and you need to accept the things you can't control and focus all your energy on the things you can.

Thank you GTTS - first of all I want to apologise for any strongly worded replies I have given or may give. SuperProudDad - I'm glad you didn't take offence.

Please bear with me and understand that what I have to say here is not meant to offend. Let me have this rant because this has to be said.

I know that I've never done anything to hurt my children. I never would. I also know that the opposite is true of my ex. I know that for nearly two years my children have been kept from me and I've been forced to see them for 2 hours a week in a contact centre. I know that this has been done to hurt me - my ex knows exactly what she's doing and she's loving every minute of it. I have one recording where she laughs in my face when I ask her for more contact with the children. Another where she says that if I try and take her to court she will stop me seeing them altogether.

I'm now being told that this has to continue in the contact centre for at least the next four months. Ok, I will do whatever it takes. If that's what is needed to keep my children happy until a final decision can be made then I will do that. I've already been doing it for fourteen months despite the fact that I've done nothing wrong.

I've already been as polite as I can possibly be with the courts, with cafcass and with social services. I honestly believed that I had a right to present my case as truthfully as possible and had the right to question cafcass for the things they got wrong, ignored or omitted.

You say that the courts don't like to separate children from their mothers, but that I have to accept the fact that they will willingly separate them from their fathers whether they are good fathers or not.

You say that I should concentrate on proving that I am a good father. This is not an easy thing to achieve given the allegations against me. If I can't show this with the evidence I have, where do I start? The only thing that is going to keep my children safe are the people who are given the task of doing that - the courts, cafcass, social services. I've tried many times and failed. You say that I should ignore the evidence I have that proves my children's welfare and safety are at risk - if I do that, are these people going to protect my children? Can anyone guarantee that they won't be in a car accident in six months or a year? That they won't be beaten or screamed at because they don't understand their homework? Will my ex's older children continue to bully and hit my daughters?

I'm trying to stop all of this but you're saying I shouldn't? I don't understand.

I've done nothing wrong. I'm trying to do what I think is right for my daughters. I'm trying to see some justice in this system and all I'm seeing is injustice and people who are prepared to ignore the truth, even if that means innocent children are at risk. I'm doing my best to convince myself that what you're saying is good advice but in the back of my head I'm wondering how many other fathers and children will suffer and go through the same things that I and many other members on this site are going through. How many other children will be separated from their fathers and forced to live with mothers who don't care that they are, mothers who deliberately and vindictively destroy lives.

If I can't protect my children, if the people in authority are not prepared to, then what chance do they ever have of living a normal and happy life, free from harm? Aren't I failing my children by not doing everything I possibly can to keep them safe?

This whole thing is wrong. I can't be the only person that sees it. I can't be the only person that wants to stand up and say it.

I hope that any mothers out there who are reading this realise the consequences of telling lies about their partners. If they are lies of things that are serious, you too could end up facing the possibility that your children might go into care. The father of your children is obviously going to defend himself and selfish and vindictive plans might backfire. Put aside your differences, accept that your relationship hasn't worked and accept that your children have two parents.

The only people who will gain anything from your suffering are the lawyers and judges (district judges earn £132,000 a year! I'm guessing there are other perks involved). I honestly wish I thought that the people in this industry actually cared about the families they are supposed to be helping. My experiences so far are telling me just the opposite.

To any fathers that are the victims of false allegations, show your ex-partner this post. Show them how telling lies could end up in the worst possible scenario. Both parents and children will suffer for the whole time that this is going on and ultimately everyone could suffer more than you ever dreamed possible, because you could lose your children. Both of you.

Rant over. I hope nobody takes offence to this post, especially you GTTS as I'm responding directly to you. I prefer blunt honesty and maybe that's my failing. Eating humble pie might gain me some benefit in the short term but my children will still be at risk if I do. I'll take some time to reflect on your advice and hopefully things will make more sense in the near future.

Different bit of advice for you here Paul, from a different perspective.

I have custody of my two girls (or had, as they are beyond 18 now). My ex spent a lot of effort in trying to find anything she could against me, and at every opportunity, trying to make me out to be evil. In my case, the mother was the one with the real problem, so legally there wasn't anything she could do, but because of her actions, she turned the girls against her and at every opportunity, instead of concentrating on trying to build a relationship with the girls (which I wouldn't have stopped) tried to turn them against me. As a result, my older daughter has only seen her mother once in the last 7 or 8 years (and that was only because she was visiting her maternal grandmother, and her mother lived there also) and my younger daughter hasn't seen her at all in that time. By coincidence of timing, they are both seeing their mother next week - my older daughter is ambivalent at best at seeing her, and my younger daughter is only going along to support her sister, and really would rather not see her.

The point of all this is that if their mother had concentrated on building a relationship with my daughters, instead of using each opportunity to try to put me down, they all would have had a much better relationship. I accept that you are in a position where your ex is trying to destroy that relationship, but that means you need to concentrate even more on building the relationship with your children than ever.

The point of all this is that if their mother had concentrated on building a relationship with my daughters, instead of using each opportunity to try to put me down, they all would have had a much better relationship.

This is spot on. When we focus on how "unfair" things are, we forget that our children are actual people with their own emotions, needs and wants.

Yes this is unfair and discriminatory against men, accept that and let it go, or risk alienating your own children.

If you focus on your relationship with your daughters, that will open a door for them to want to be with you if that's genuinely best for them. Children are a lot more capable than what they are generally given credit for.

I don't think anyone is really understanding my situation here. I can't build my relationship with my daughters any more than I'm already doing. My ex has refused contact outside of a contact centre and I see them for only 2 hours a week. I make the most of every second we have together - we already had a fantastic relationship and still do. Other than the contact centre, there are phone calls.
I feel like I'm in my own personal [censored]. I've been forced into this situation because my ex made all these allegations against me. I HAD to defend myself - if I hadn't, I know she would have kept them from me for as long as possible, tried to make out that I was in some way a danger to them. Nothing could be further from the truth - I've always been the only person that has tried to protect them. My ex's jealousy and insecurity won through in the end - when we split up I believe she'd already decided on a plan. Her sister had already been through this and the sister moved away to Wales with a court order denying the father any knowledge of where she was. She had friends that had been through similar things. She knew what she was doing from day one.
I on the other hand was extremely naive - I knew nothing about family courts or law. She caught me off guard and the only response I could think of was to record what was happening. I successfully recorded admissions by her that she had lied, contradictions and more lies. It was my only defence against what she was doing. She actually said in the argument we had that if I tried to go to court for access for the children she'd destroy my life. She's doing a pretty good job.

I tried to talk sense into her. I tried to be amicable. I begged her to sort things out amicably. She just wouldn't see how it was hurting our children. She obviously didn't care that she was hurting me - she was actually enjoying it. Some people just thrive on power over others and what better weapon to use than our daughters - she knew how much we loved each other.

I'm not out to destroy my ex. All I ever wanted and still do is to stop her controlling our lives. I didn't ask for any of this and I didn't want it. I still don't. But nothing I've ever said to her has made her see the light. She has our daughters for 166 hours out of 168 a week. Her lies and twisted plans have won. And there is absolutely nothing I can do about it except rely on the courts - something it seems they're not prepared to do.

I'm utterly reeling from this. There is so much evidence that proves she's lied, so much that proves she was hurting children, putting them in harms way. But not one single person cares about the truth - nobody is prepared to look at the proof.

I'm not the bad guy in all of this. My sole objective from the day our daughters were born was to love them. I have done from that day until this. All I want is for this evil woman to stop controlling myself and my daughters and to keep them safe.

Okay Paul.....

I can see how frustrated you are, however, I am also lost reading your replies - they're so long and clouded by your frustrations.....From what you have said your statements sound like they have been way too long as well with too much evidence. In that scenario a judge will also probably get lost and just skim read your statement as an attack on your ex rather than you focusing on what is best for your children. I will say that in all the hearings I've been to, I've yet to see a District Judge who doesn't take serious concerns seriously.

When you build a case, you need to be clear and focus on the important issues - the welfare of the children.

When raising concerns, these also need to be clear. For example if I said to you what are your safeguarding concerns, could you list these succinctly? I've read through quite a few of your previous posts and I can't seem to pull that information out.

As the others have said, right now you need to focus on building a good relationship with your children. Jump through the hoops and demonstrate to the SW who writes the S37 that they are your number one priority rather than getting the evidence on the mother heard.

The fact that a court has ordered a S37 tells me that the mother isn't squeaky clean in the eyes of the court either. A S37 over a S7 or S7 addendum is not a report the court orders lightly and they are a very serious matter. If you and the mother don't focus on what is best for the children now, you run the risk of the author of the report looking at care recommendations.

With regard to the court saying a mother has to give permission for supervised contact, it's actually more that they have to agree and if you don't have the court on side they won't do much to encourage the other party to move forward.

It is not a final decision, that is why you have final hearings so that everyone has a fair hearing (incidentally the time to call on your evidence). Sometimes you won't need a final contested hearing - that is why you have one more hearing before the final, to give one last chance for you to agree. See what the S37 says, you never know, you both might agree with what the report says.

Focus on spending time with your children, even if it is at a contact centre. If it's supervised contact you will have reports that you can submit to the court. If it's supported contact, then the court can't be that concerned about you.

We are all trying to help and have taken the time to reply to your posts. It might be good if you can keep your posts a bit shorter and more clear on what you are asking for advice on as I'm not sure from this thread, what you specifically want to know. By all means, if you just want to rant and air your frustrations, perhaps say that you are not looking for advice but just to vent.

Best of luck

Paul,

I've been where you are, I am often back there again and expect I will be over and over again until my children are older.

I have evidence my ex has lied to the police 18 times - just like you - strong real evidence. Nobody cares.

The Court and CAFCASS have gone into print over her dishonesty on three occasions. Nobody cares.

Over almost three years, my case move on little bit by little bit until I went from full on denial of contact to where I am now - 50-50. We had a fact find and certain lies were exposed but there was no victory, no punishment. Just a few more allegations that didn't have to be considered anymore.

All the time I was fighting this battle, my ex was fighting it too. Our children - who are under three - were subjected to the stress of it all, secondhand.

Early on in any case, things seem not to be moving anywhere. Court hearing dates seem like a lifetime away and all along you worry because you can't be what, instinctively, you should be - a protector and a provider. This is the injustice and you have no choice but to suffer it. Family Court generally takes years.

Ultimately, the Court will always be there. So in future, if things aren't right for your children, you go back.

It's clear what you have amassed, the evidence, isn't doing you much good. It is in fact doing you more harm than good.

I absolutely understand how you feel about the ex and the lies and the fact you have the proof to show she has lied. I and a thousand other fathers have been here too.

Wrongly or rightly, it's not until you let go of that desperation to clear your name and save the children from her that you will truly start to make progress in your case.

What would you do if you were a judge? To him / her you probably look like a mad axe man [censored] bent on crucifying the ex when all that judge really wants to do is keep the children safe and make sure they are able to spend time with each of their parents.

Family Law makes no sense mate and quite often you need to take a leap backwards and a tiny step forwards. You need to get yourself into a place where you can see that this is the only way to go.

By the way, you may find if you change your tactics your ex will too - she may decide to be a little more giving.

It's not fair, I know, The pain of it all is like nothing else but I got through it and so will you once you adjust your sails.

Yoda

I am focusing on the welfare of the children. I can't see how you can have missed the safeguarding concerns I've raised. Driving up to 42 hours without sleep, driving with a heart condition, beating the children, bullying. The neglect at work, which has a potential to drift into our family lives. They're all mentioned, plain to see. These concerns are about the welfare of the children. There are others but how much of my laundry should I air in public? They are however issues that I've raised with the courts.

I keep hearing that I should be focusing on building a relationship with my children - I've already mentioned that the children and myself have a great relationship, full of love and fun. I'm limited to how much I can do this because I'm being forced by my ex to only see them for 2 hours a week. What else can I possibly do?Of course I can show how well we get along when the time comes but until then I'm limited.

Despite the courts recommendation to the mother that unsupervised access would benefit the children, she is still refusing.Contact at the support centre is supported, not supervised.

I'm trying to keep my replies short but there are multiple issues, lots of people trying to help and I'm trying to respond to all of these. Better than missing things out that might be important.

justdad

Thank you - some common sense from someone who's been there! Someone who's experienced first hand how the "justice" system seems to be anything but. I can't believe you've had to endure your nightmare for 3 years or more. It's ludicrous.

"Wrongly or rightly, it's not until you let go of that desperation to clear your name and save the children from her that you will truly start to make progress in your case". I'm just so confused by all of this. An S37 has been ordered - how can I forget about trying to clear my name - if they believe my ex's lies and I can't disprove them, isn't it possible the children will end up in care? If I forget about all the REAL safeguarding issues, aren't the children still going to be at risk?

If any judge really wanted to keep our children safe they would look at the evidence that proves that they're not. If a judge honestly wanted to ensure that the children spent time with their parents, wouldn't they look at the proof showing that I'm not guilty of the things I'm accused of. Ok, there's a lot of it - I'd settle for 10%.

Sometimes I wish I could talk to my ex and get her to see sense, to work out a plan so that our children could be safe and happy. She's just not that person. She's [censored] bent on discrediting me as a father and will literally stop at nothing to do that. The difference between us is that I'm not making things up. I actually have genuine concerns about our children - what she's doing is deflecting blame away from herself to cover her tracks. It seems to be working and nobody can see it.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

I'm quite sure Yoda understands your safeguarding concerns, we all do, but your missing that fact. In one breath you thank just dad and then you question his advice.

You have been given some very good advice, yet because it's not what you want to hear you continue to tell us all we don't understand. Trust me we do, many of us have been there and have had to let go of the allegations and accusations and bitterness this causes.

Justdad has spoken eloquently about how to move forward and I would strongly advise that you listen and take the advice he has offered.

The Family Court system is flawed, but until you realise you have to work within it, you will continue to get battered against its confines.

Many parents behave badly, make errors of judgement and take risks that could endanger their children, it's impossible for the system to act on these types of situations, if they did they would have to place many many more children in care and the system would implode. They will only act when there is a very serious risk of harm, where there are physical and psychological signs of cruelty and neglect, even then they will try and work with the resident parent, rather than remove the children, I have seen this first hand...it's shocking, but it is the reality.

Whilst you are digging your heels in and becoming more entrenched in this battle against your ex, you are moving further away from your children. They need more than the two hours of supported contact a week, but if you carry on trying to buck the system, the prospect of this becoming the status quo for a long time, is a very real possibility.

I'm sure you've researched the principles behind a Section 37 report, the court are asking Social Services to find out whether they should apply for a care/supervision order to safeguard the children. The judge has ordered this, he must therefore have taken your allegations seriously! The danger is, that if they find safeguarding concerns serious enough, your children could be taken into care, it wouldn't automatically follow that they would be placed with you... this is another reason why you need to radically adjust your approach and allow the authorities to get on with their job, seriously, you need to start presenting as calm and reasonable right now, not [censored] bent on retribution, as this will go against you.

Paul,

Sorry but everyone here really does see the frustration you feel....in the last 7,1/2yrs I too have been there done that and got the t-shirt!

here's my honest advice, find a local FnF meeting (Famlies need Fathers group) and arrange to go down to their meeting and have a chat with them, sometimes talking face to face rather than writing posts helps better as then you get someones opinion without the possiblity of any mis-understandings.

i met a few guys at one a couple of years ago, i went for a 5 or 6 meetings but they were a very small group only ever a handfull of people turned up but they helped me understand a few things and gave me a few ideas i'd not thought of.