[Solved] Getting more contact with the kids

Hi Vic,

Welcome to the site! Sorry to hear about your problem, but we're here to help as much as we can 🙂

Before I go into any detail, could you answer a few questions? How old are your children? You mention that you currently see your kids two days a week, how does this work? Do they stay with you overnight? How long do you get with them; for instance what time do you pick them up and drop them off? And finally do you live relatively local to them?

FM '70

Hi filmmaker thanks for getting back to me.

My boys are 8 and 6 and they stay with me for two nights a week, on school days I collect the boys from school this is at 15.00 hrs they stay that night and I take them to shool folowing day , then collect them they stay over that night I take them to school and thier mother then picks them up and I dont get to see them for another six days. My shift pattern dictates what days I get to see them I work 4 x 12hr shifts consisting of 2 days and 2 nights followed by four rest days, I have a fantastic family network which includes my partner and my parents and I see no reason why I couldn't increase my time with the boys by an extra day. (I dont think this is unreasonable)

One in six weeks I get them for the full weekend (Saturday and Sunday and drop them at school Monday morning).

Sometimes because of the nature of my job [police officer] I am obliged to work overtime and have my shift pattern altered at short notice a fact my ex wife tends to use against me which is unfair but none the less a fact, however my family and partner help out where they can if I get called in short notice

I live just a few miles away from them, so travel isnt an issue.

Vic

Hi Vic,

It incredibly difficult to get a full residency order, in fact the only way that would happen is if your children were at emotional or physical risk and this doesn't appear to be the case in this situation.

When you split from your ex, did you have to go to court to get a contact order to see your children or did you manage to negotiate the current arrangement with your ex directly?

Your shift pattern dictates that you have to have a fairly flexible contact routine, but your ex isn't being particularly flexible. Although she will no doubt argue that she is. If no contact order exists then I think you have the option of suggesting mediation as a way of potentially resolving this matter. There's clearly a fair bit of animosity between you and your ex, so entering into a mediated discussion may prove quite productive. It's also something that a court would expect you to have at least attempted prior to making any application.

There are also no guarantees that a court will agree with you and it may well be that they could view your current level of contact as adequate, especially given your shift pattern. It's fairly standard that non-resident parents see their children on alternative weekends with a provision for midweek telephone/skype contact, so compared to some other dads you're not doing too badly with a couple of overnights each week.

What are your current arrangements for school holidays, birthdays, Christmas, etc? It's not unreasonable to expect to be able to spend time with your kids during these times and your ex should really consider alternating contact with you so that you both get to enjoy your children during holidays and on special events.

FM '70

This doesnt seem fair, they are as much my children as they are hers, why am I not entitled to see them as often as her?

It's not particularly fair and you're preaching to the converted.

I remember my solicitor describing alternate weekend contact as"generous" and I just wanted to punch the wall in frustration. Most of us that use the site want to spend more time with our children and would ideally like to see changes to UK family law that would afford fathers more equality.

At present contact is not seen as being the right of the parent, but rather that of the child. The level of contact a non-resident parent (you) has with his children is usually determined by the resident parent (your ex wife). If you are being denied contact or having it limited you can apply to the court for a contact order.

You also have the option of applying for a residence, or shared residence order. Whilst shared residence orders are becoming more common, a court will not make a significant change to the living arrangements of a child unless the action can be justified. Based on what you've told me so far, I don't think either of these options will offer a particularly successful resolution for you.

You can't go to court without attempting mediation, so this is something that you should give some serious consideration to before doing anything else. The courts will expect you to have tried this. Remember that most Dads who are forced to go to court are having little-to-no contact with their children, so you would have to justify why you feel that court action is necessary. It may be that you're asking for a more defined level of contact; i.e, you want a more specific agreement for holidays, birthdays, Christmas, etc.

How long have you had your current contact agreement? Do you have a contact order or did you agree to the current arrangement without involving the courts? What is the current arrangement for holidays, etc? I think you have more of a chance to increase contact over holiday periods etc, than you do by asking for an additional overnight during the week given your shift pattern.

FM '70

We agreed the current arrangements through solicitors whilst getting us divorced. I've attempted to go to mediation with her at that time but she didnt bother to turn up. I'm not "allowed" to have them on thier birthdays and Christmas last year was a nightmare consisting of her refusing to allow me to have them (even though christmas eve and christmas day were technically my days to have them).
I managed to get them on Christmas day night but only after some serious threats of taking her to court and was only allowed to have them that night.
We wanted to take them abroad for a weeks holiday (that they both deserved) but she threatened to call the police and accuse me of kidnapping if I took them out of the country (ironic I know!). We ended up going camping in the Lakes because she managed to convince the boys that a week in spain was too far away and too long a period.

I'm probably going to sound cliche'd here but she really isn't the full shilling. Her attempts to alienate my boys against me are heart breaking, not least because the boys arent niave enough to believe all that she is telling them and they are utterly torn.
My partner thinks there may be some grounds for attaining full custody although proving them is not oly difficult but would be distressing for the boys and I have no disire to see them upset more than they already are.

This puts me in an impossible situation, I know they would be better off with me (you dont knw the half of it!) but I cant do a thing about it she seems to hold all the cards when it come to family courts.

You probably have heard all this before, if not experienced it for yourself and I'd just like to say thanks and keep up the good work helping other dads through what is a frustrating and painful situation.

Hi Vic

FM is correct that you will find it very difficult to get a residence order - it can happen (I have one) but the courts are generally reluctant to move the children unless there are very real concerns over child welfare, rather than being a slight or moderate improvement in their quality of life. You may have more chance of getting joint custody, though this is not an area I have any great knowledge in.

I would say that you have a good chance of getting your level of contact increased, and if your ex is refusing to mediate, then you can go to court to try to get this increase - bear in mind it's possible your ex may try to reduce contact in the mean time, it's not too uncommon unfortunately, but it is worth it if you can get a contact order with increase contact and, say, alternate birthdays/holidays.

Ok. I would write to her and let her know that you (and the boys) want to spend more time together.

Explain that time has moved on and you're unhappy with the current contact arrangements, especially around the issue of holidays, birthdays and Christmas. Tell her that you'd like to resolve these issues as amicably as possible and that you feel mediation would be the best way of doing this. Also be very clear that if she doesn't agree to this she will leave you no option other than to bring the matter before the courts.

Given her history of non-cooperation, I would expect that she'll decline mediation.

Yoji has posted an excellent step-by-step guide on how to represent yourself in court and I would recommend that you take a look at it. You'll find it at the top of the Legal Eagle forum. You are looking for a defined contact order that actually details how contact at Christmas, birthdays, holidays will be managed. I think you'd be able to get a positive outcome and would have the security of a contact order, so should your ex become obstructive you can go back to court and have the order enforced.

FM '70

Ok, that makes sense, I can try to secure holidays and Birthdays but am unlikely to get them "50/50".

Can't thank you enough for your help, I've already started reading yoji's guide.....

You can apply for a shared residence order, but I think this will put more stress on everyone and I think you're absolutely right to spare the kids any unecessary distress.

Hi Vic,

Just as something to consider regarding this as an aside from excellent advice from FM and actd:

If you did go for a Shared Residence Order, this does not mean 50/50. A Residence Order can come into force with 3 days per week. In fact, i would always argue that someone who is going to look at a split between 5-6days of Contact out of 14days (a fortnight), its always safer raising Shared Residence Application.