[Solved] Final hearing what to expect?

Hi scooby
Unfortunately, there's no guarantees of what happens in court, and there's also no guarantee that two judges will come to the same decision, but it certainly helps what the judge has said already. If you don't have a solicitor acting for you, you could give the CCLC a call for some additional advice.

thanks for the reply.
im hoping i get the same judge but my solicitor says it is the luck of the draw on the day. this judge had a realy strong view on what should happen but i no its not gaurenteed this is why i am worried. im hoping they will see that there has never been any problems with any contacts and they will think shes ready to come to ireland i feel it is important for her to be apart of her family in ireland and 4 yrs is along time for not seen grandparents auntys uncles cousins etc. dont no what to expect about the name i feel very strongly about not changing the name especially that i live in ireland and only have contact every 8 wks i just dont want my daughters name changed because mother has married im still her dad.

sorry for the double post do you no if the judge i had at last hearing will give a report on what she said to whatever judge does the final hearing?

Hi scooby,

Your case is a fairly difficult one to make a guess at the outcome. This primarily relating to the travel element.

I would say that the Final Hearing is one where the Magistrate/Judge will make an outcome there on the day. It is clear to me that you are doing all you can to be as involved as you can given your predicament.

In addition to the circumstance your Daughter is also missing out on the love of her wider family (your family) and the Courts should definately support you and your Daughter in having access to this.

How old is your Daughter?

Indeed i strongly agree too that your Child's name should remain the same. This to me (while certainly not an isolated incident) sounds that she is acting out of spite. I would strongly advise that you also try and raise at the hearing an enforcement order relating to your Daughter being known by her birth name and not as a "known by" which to me it definately sounds like your ex-partner will try to do. This will raise many problems for you should you ever wish to get involved in her education/health issues (god forbid that they may arise).

Your Solicitor is right, it can be a case of luck of the draw on the day. What standing are you going off from your case? Are you looking to try and argue of your exclusion because of her being controlling of your child? Given your posts i would argue you have a point.

The Judge from the previous hearing will usually include a direction and "minutes" relating to the last hearing. These of course will be read by the Judge on the day. If you are unsure as to what may be included you can contact the local courts to ascertain what might trickle over from your last interview.

thanks for reply

My daughter is 10 next month she had been coming to ireland since she was a baby 3 times a yr up until dec 2007 which was the lastime she was over. nearly 4 yrs now.

me and mother never had a relationship shes always lived in uk i always lived in ireland we met in ireland when she was over visiting family.she always allowed me contact when she came to ireland and when i visted uk.when she stopped contact in ireland after dec 2007 i went to the uk looking for contact and have been attending every 8 wks since (costing me a fortune) especialy when i bring my 2 other children so the can have contact with ther sister. getting to the stage now whether i pay my mortgage or have contact with my daughter.i didnt want to get solicitors or court involved but she left me no choice i agreed to go to england to have contact but when id get ther she would say i could only have a few hrs not overnight as agreed she would say she was staying in her grand parents that weekend or worst was canceled contact when she punished my daughter for not doing her homework said was the only thing that would make her do her homework in future my daughter always asks to stay longer with me but is not allowed.
mothers said to judge that its to soon for my daughter to go to ireland and that shes not in a position to bring her as she feels my family would be hostile towards her (they never have been she always stayed in my mams house when she came over with my daughter) judge said sure you dont have to go to ireland dad can collect and drop back she then said my daughter wont go without her. its all a mess i am worried about the feelings and wishes to that she might put things in my daughters head i dont no what way caffcass will look at the situation. mother tells my daughter that her new husband is her dad as there married now and thats why her name is changed. she changed my daughters name to a known by name at school last yr i found out when i contacted school for update on how she was doing as mother wont provide this. the school have all my details now and said will consult me on everything and they changed her name back to that on her birtcert untill the get something saying her name has to be changed.
i dont no what my solicitor is going to bring up at the final hearing i still have to do my statement with her. but i will ask her about the order to not use a known by name.(thanks for that)
She basicly doesnt want me around now that she has met someone else. the whole family constantly interfere with my contact time. giving my daughter a phone and phoning 6-7 times a day between mam,stepdad,nanny, grandad, auntys its a joke shes only giving the phone when coming with me its not like i wouldnt answer my phone to her asking me to drop her around to them for awile because they miss her and when i didnt arrived and the mobile home 9am nxt morning,
ah the list is endless i dont no what will happen all i know is i cant keep getting loans to have contact in uk very 8 wks. and im sick my family wont see her again this xmas.

What do you think of my proposals for half of all school holidays in ireland and alternate xmas day. one yr i have her next mam does is that excessive?

Hi scooby,

If your daughter is 10 and there have been regular visits to Ireland since she was 3 i really don't see what the issue is here. There is often always something else that is/has been going along with this. I trust you have your statement prepared and sent to Court?

Just so you are aware. Now i've been given a little more info the actual issue likely to be discussed at the Court will be two fold:
1) Why is the Mother against your Daughter going to Ireland and
2) What provisions are you prepared to make to cater for the contact to be able to go ahead (i.e. are you prepared to travel to fetch her and pay the fee's)

If you are worried about your ex filling your daughters head with things, it is simply a case of actually educating your daughter against it. She needs to know that she is what matters to you and that you travel from Ireland every 8weeks because thats how long it takes you to save up enough money. Children can be incredibly smart if you give them some knowledge... rest assured if you have any issues with any form of badmouthing etc feel free to drop me a thread i can give some good pointers.

To be fair you have an excellent case here regarding the name change and its affect on your accessing the relevent information. I would try and raise that your ex is telling your daughter that her new husband is now her Dad too. Again, bang out of order. You're clearly involved.

I think that your proposals perfectly reasonable 🙂

I'd only say that Christmas may become a little problematic and as you daughter gets older you have to be aware that school holidays may be her chance to spend with friends. That is of course several years away.

I hope your statement turns out good.

Thanks for the reply great help on this site and find it hard to find someone in a simular situation as me. My daughter actualy has been visiting ireland since she was 3 months old until she was 6 hastnt been since 2007 as mam wont bring her or allow me. She doesnt give a reason why she doesnt want her to come only that its to soon and that shes not prepared to bring her. Ive offered to pay for flights for her to bring her over but still says no ive also said id fly over to pick her up and bring her back but still answer is no. I just cant see why it would be in my daughters best interest to be cut from her irish family she also has a great relationship with my brother her godfather but mothers has cut him out also since i brought it to court. I havent done a statement yet my solicitor says ive to have a phone app with her in dec to go through it i am hoping i get the same judge as she felt very strong about not changing the name an also feels contact in my home would be more natural than holiday accomodation she also said she cant see any other judge changing name or not granting contact in ireland so would she not just agree contact at xmas to avoid my daughter getting feeling and wishes but mother still wants to apply for it. Im still worried what the outcome will be even after what judge said im hoping that judge gives her toughts to whoever does final hearing then maybe i have a chance. I understand when she gets older she mite not want to leave her friends but i think she will miss me and her siblings in ireland ive an 8yr old daughter and they are very close also i just want her to build the bond with everyone now before her teens so she knows were all here for her and who we are. If she tells me when shes older she doesnt want to come as often that would be fine with me. But i no know she wants to and mother is refusing.

Forgot to metion the reason im worried about my daughters head been filled with stuff or been told what to say is because the judge told her ther would have to be something realy drastic in the feelings and wishes report for my daughter not to come to ireland. Shes trying everything to try stop this contact so i wouldnt be suprised.but of course im not going to see my daughter now until xmas and report will be done by then so i cant sit down and explain whats going to happen but she nos i save to travel to see her and that she is all i care about.

It sounds as if the School is being cooperative, so perhaps you could have a word with them and see how they feel about you writing to you daughter at the School on, say, a weekly basis - a letter is a good way to show you are thinking abut her.

Hi actd thats a great suggestion as she never recieves anything i send in the post at home. but wondering what the school would think would they be afraid if i wrote to her in school she mite get upset? What way would i ask?would i just say its to let her no im always thinking of her and i will see her soon? And that i feel it would not make the 8 weeks as long.

The school should have a pastoral care worker - this is someone that your daughter can go to and speak in confidence (in fact, it's so confidential, my daughter was going to see the worker at her primary school for a year before I found out, and that was only because my daughter mentioned it to me in passing) about anything she wants.

I would suggest that you first speak to the head teacher at the school, and ask if you can send a letter each week/fortnight to the school - tell the school that the letter will be open so they can see the contents, and that your daughter should read it with the pastoral care worker. Also send them a supply of stamped addressed envelopes so that your daughter can write back to you. Ask the head if the pastoral care worker can introduce herself to your daughter to see how she feels about it, and make sure your daughter knows that it's in strict confidence, and that anything that happens in those sessions won't be passed back to her mother (or you for that matter if she has any concerns about her relationship with you) without your daughter's permission.

Then make sure that the letters you send are all positive and light hearted, so that she looks forward to getting them and sending you a reply 🙂

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks for that actd i will contact the school today let you know how i get on.

Hi scooby,

Essentially your ex is just being unreasonable on the contact issue. This should be a relatively simple matter for the Judge to actually sort.

As an add on point to what actd has said the school themselves now you are living separately need to afford you the right to be able to speak to them in confidence. I have in the past had issues with relation to my Daughters nursery feeding my questions back to my ex. Before you write letters to the school i would definately ensure that this information will not (as per School guidelines) be fed back to her Mother.

In my case the Nursery feeding these questions i was asking (about my daughter) presented problems in Court hearings in that they were mentioned but thankfully not mentioned by the Legal Adviser.

thanks yoji i hope they do see she is just being difficult.

And about contacting the school re not telling mother what i want to do. would they not think that i was putting them in an awkward position would they not have to check with her mother first that she was ok with my daughter doing it?

Hi scooby,

No the school should not say this, at all... you are a parent and have the right to have your concerns (unless they are detriment to the Child) kept confidentially between you and them. As per actd's post your daughter can make this choice.

To give you an idea of how to approach a possible issue (such as your post)... i was called to a meeting with my Daughters Nursery quite some time ago. I was informed (in front of my ex who had undoubtedly forced the meeting) that my calling the Nursery was putting them and her staff in an awkward position which would be affect other children as a consequence. My reply to her in front of a rather smugly sitting ex was to basically exercise my rights as someone with parental responsibility i have a right to this information and equally, that her staff were only feeling uncomfortable with giving me this information because of what my ex was saying (negative about myself). As soon as i said this there was an acknowledging silence. Suffice to say i did not have any such issues after continuing on and under the threat of contacting OfSTED concerning this... like i say knowledge can be a powerful tool.

Yoji is absolutely correct on this. You can expect to speak with the school in confidence about pastoral support for your child and you have every right to do so as you have parental responsibility.

Nurseries are, unfortunately, a different matter and the resident parent has much more control over what happens regarding access to records and general communication.

My son's nursery would often fail to adhere to the legally required staff-to-child ratio due to penny pinching on the part of its management team. My son was actually injured during one of these periods and I reported them to OFSTED. They upheld the complaint and published their findings on the OFSTED website, but I was unable to remove him from that nursery as my ex refused and my PR did not extend to the nursery environment. I could have opted for very long and very expensive court proceedings, but my solicitor advised that my son would be nearing school age by the time the issue was resolved...

thanks for all the advice ive sent an email off to the head teacher about writing to my daughter at school.
She usualy replies to me quite quick so hopefully i will hear something soon and let you know what she thinks hopefully she will see it as a good idea 🙂

hi everyone just got an email back from the head teacher saying she is going to speak with my daughters mother to make sure she has no objection to me writing shannon letters at school. i think i already no what her answer is going to be.

Hi scooby,

Your ex will likely not approve of this. Equally i would question as to why your ex would need to allow you to write letters.

The school should not have contacted the mother.

You're probably right Scooby and I'm surprised that the school has contacted the mother in this instance. The mother, as resident parent, can control contact and I think the school is covering their back. It's a great shame, as there's clearly an opportunity here for you and your daughter to enjoy a form of contact with each other. Given that previous correspondence has failed to reach your daughter, perhaps you can still suggest this approach to the court?

Or alternatively ask whether you can give your daughter a mobile or SIM card for weekly chats and regular text messages. If your daughter has access to the internet maybe you could buy her a cheap laptop or notebook with Skype installed so you can talk over the internet for free?

Given the geographical distance between you, it's not unreasonable to expect weekly telephone and/or written contact. Remember to ask for it to be written into an order. I imagine the school would be happy to go along with the stipulations of a contact order.

thanks lads i was suprised myself i tought the school would of asked my daughter first if she would like to do it,but now i just think mother is going to object just because she can and to hurt me further. i dont realy want to get into an argument with the school about this i no im putting them in an awkward position as it is.
But i do want to try to get as much contact as i can between visits.judge reccomended skype and facebook as my daughter has a facebook acc which shes not allowed use or reply to me and think its just set up to nosey on my page and to get at me by putting stuff up on it saying i love my mam and dad lots and happy birthday to best dad, stepdad is listed as her dad on facebook yet my daughter says she doesnt be on facebook 👿 mother agreed to this at court but then said her pc blew up and she would get grandad to set it up but sure he wont either as they dont want me involved now.
I have phone contact every sunday its in a court order but since my last visit and court hearing (2 weeks ago),my daughter has been very strange and quite on the phone and has stopped telling me she loves me, i presume this is because judge made it clear that my daughters name shouldnt be changed and also judge reccomended contact in ireland, i think mothers finding it hard to take in. i just hope they wont turn her against me because of caffcass coming to do feelings and wishes.
worried sick at what report will come back from caffcass now and theres nothing i can do about it. would be so much easier for me to give her mother what she wants and have walked away but i just couldnt face my daughter wen she grows up and comes to ask me why.
sometimes i do think is it best for me to be around? and for my daughter to be put through this or for me to walk away and let her see them as her family and not been split between 2 of us. 🙁 oh and i have already bought a notebook for my daughter for xmas will install skype and try get mobile broadband for her so ther is no excuse but im sure something will happen to it.

hi, I'm dissappointed at the school's reaction, but I think the suggestion of having this contact put into the contact order will resolve it, as the school then won't have an issue. I suspect that your ex is in the room when you have the phone conversation with your daughter, and that would account for the conversations being strained. I agree that if you get a laptop, something will happen to it - it may be cheaper to get a fairly basic Skype phone from someone like 3 where you can (or used to be able) to get huge amounts of skype calls included in the package, if you're not on 3 yourself, then it may be worth getting a pair of phones - I'm not up to speed with mobile contracts, so there may be other/better deals from other providers. the advantage of this is that she can get out of the house and talk, and it's harder for your ex to be with your daughter when she's speaking to you.

thanks actd
im not back in court till feb but i will defo try get it in a court oder and give it to the school.

she has a phone already but she is only allowed it when coming with me for the whole family to phone her said shes not allowed a phone any other time.
ive seen the mams laptop when dropping her off so she does have 1.shel just find some way around me not having contact has and iphone aswel and does be on facebook everyday no matter what i do shel always prevent it. sure all i can do is try.
when im talking to her its like im on loadspeaker and i can hear them in the backround but she has never been this quite before.

hi lads,
just recieved email from school saying mum wont agree to me writing to my daughter at school that she only wants me to have the contact thats in the order. what do you think i should reply saying?

Hi Scooby

I'm not too surprised by this response from the school. Can you just remind us, what, if anything, is in the contact order about written/phone contact with your daughter?

I would consider replying to the school thanking them for their assistance so far (ok, you may have to bite your tongue while writing that) and asking them if they would be prepared to accept letters to pass on to your daughter if it was specified in a contact order, as you are concerned that your daughter is not receiving your letters at home. In reality, they might have difficulty in refusing such a request as the school should act in your daughter's best interests, and if a court adds this to a contact order, they obviously are doing this because they believe that it is the best solution.

However, before you do this, I would have a word with your solicitor to get his opinion on the situation, and whether he feels that it's a reasonable request to add to the contact order. You also need to make sure that it covers the current school, and any future schools she may go to.

thanks actd
The order i have at the moment is for phone contact wed and sundays and skype when available. nothing in the order about written contact as i didnt ask for it as my post never gets to my daughter.but judge did say to try promote as much contact as i can between visits between phone skype and facebook so if i ask for it i dont think it would be a problem. school has just phoned me and said they feel ther been put in the middle and cant seem to please either of us so they have a meeting next week with there legal team?
i know myself i am putting them in an awkward position and feel terrible .

Hi scooby,

The schools legal department should report that they have to afford you the right to have things kept between you and the school private, without the involvement of the other parent. Equally, they should not be allowed to say that you are putting them in an awkward position. You have the same rights as the Mother.

thanks yoji thats what im hoping for.

I just got a letter from my solicitor saying my ex is having trouble in extending her public funding certificate and that this will prevent her from making an application to change my daughters name.
Does this mean the final hearing wont go ahead if she doesnt have funding?
would she need public funding to apply to change name does it cost alot if your not getting funding.
My solicitor is away now until the 22nd nov so hoping you might know something about this.

No the final hearing will go ahead. Regardless if she has access to funding or not.

She wouldn't/shouldn't need to it apply the name change. Naturally you are going to defend it. A childs name is an important part of their identity.

thats a relief i tought the letter meant if she didnt have funding it wouldnt go ahead.

and about the name change in the court order it just says mother intends to apply to file a c2 application regarding childs surname and that it shouldnt be listed seperatly for directions.

i dont have a clue what that means 😕

hi all

well the school had an app with there legal department about writing to my daughter at school this is the letter i recieved thismorning i dont think i can do much about there decision they know i only have contact on school holidays so it will be difficult for me to attend during term. do you think the school would allow a telephone app to discuss my daughter progress?

I write in relation to your recent request regarding exchanging letters with your daughter through school, to clarify the school's position after seeking further advice from legal department .
As i have previously stated, we will send you a copy of your daughter's annual report in july each year, and keep you informed of the dates of termly parent evenings. The school appreciates that you may not be able to attend on certain dates and so would be more than happy to arrange suitable appointments within term time at which we can discuss your daughters progress.

However, i would like to clarify that the school is not in a position to become involved in contact issues . If you have any difficulties with court orders or directions made for contact and/or having with your daughter generally then you need to seek independent legal advice from your solicitor.

Hi Scooby,

If your ex is filing a C2 application regarding your name change, it means that she is going to put her case forward to change the name. The hearing means that the hearing about changing the childs name will go to a directions hearing and i suspect this will be more of a hearing the arguments for an against from yourself and your ex.

The school should allow you to have the telelphone conversation yes... you are her parent.

The school technically are being advised i believe wrongly now by their own legal department relating to the text which (i assume) has come from their letter to you. They are coming at an angle of there is a contact dispute occurring and that they are being made to default into the arrangement, this is not the case... they aren't actually raising to the fact that this has nothing to do with contact but helping your daughter in support of an opportunity to have correspondence to you. I'm a little bewildered that the school aren't prepared to support you in this.

If they aren't prepared to allow you contact via letter... i'd start thinking about phone calls.

It may be worth asking the school if they would be prepared to assist in contact if it was put into a contact order - they may be worried that by assisting at the moment, they may be acting in breach of a contact order as you have specified contact. The fact that they have taken legal advice implies that they may not be averse to the idea, but that they are covering themselves from a legal standpoint.

Alright lads. well i got the date for the final hearing i also recieved the cafcass report about whether my daughter should travel to ireland for contact with me and also about whether her name should be changed.

Im happy enough with the report in that they tought it would be in my daughters best interest to visit ireland and she herself wanted to come over but its not as much as i hoped. i wanted half of all school holidays with at least 2 weeks during summer.
they suggested 1 week at easter, 1 week at summer and 1 week at christmas as these are the longer school holidays. they felt that on the shorter mid terms feb,june, oct that 3 or 4 days would be to short to travel and it might interfere with her schooling. i wasnt happy with this as when you add up all the days including the weekends there is 11 days in each of the short midterms so i was hoping i could of had 5 nights in each of the short midterms. i dont think it would interfere with her schooling as she is on holidays and plenty of people travel for weekends or midweek breaks when there on school holidays and i she would be home intime for school

They also said my daughter wished for her mam or grandfather to bring her over as she didnt want to go without 1 of them but mum wont agree as she has responsibilitys and i wouldnt be happy with the grandad commiting to this as he works away alot and also is a heavy drinker he constantly interferes with my time with shannon when im in england and refuses to let me speak with her while shes staying at his home. I am afraid to agree to this as i think is another way of there been more problems with me having no contact and think there will always be times when he cant get over or just wont. this would cause alot of difficulties for me as if he doesnt bring her i cant just have her the next day flights would have to be booked for me to go over and at last minute i wouldnt be able to afford it which means i wouldnt see her for another month or so.
i realy would feel at ease if i could pick her up myself in eng and bring her to ireland with me and then bring her home i wouldnt have to rely on anybody then.
also about the name. it says in the report that my daughter would like a double barreled name with mine and her stepdads and they would hope the court supports this. the only problem i have with this is mum dropping my name. she has already done this in school completly removed my name and asked for the stepdads surname to be used only.

ive have spoke to my solicitor about this but she doesnt seem to be bothered its like she wants to drag evertything out. i explained my concerns about grandad bringing my daughter over for contact and what if he couldnt come and cancelled.her response was ther will always be a few bumps at the start but if this happens it means me and my daughter dont get to see eachother for another 6-8 wks.
My daughter is so comfortable with me and my family she is happy when she is with me for a week i cant see why i cant just pick her up. i know at first because its a diff country she might want her mum to bring her but i think the first time is enough and then future visits i should be allowed pick her up.
I also wanted to apply for an irish passport for my daughter so there would be no issues with her eng 1 been lost last min. i asked my solicitor could i get my daughters birthcert but she said not to ask yet as this might upset my daughters mum and she might not be agreeable to anything in court.
but i realy wanted to have it before april just incase im bringing her over.

Could i get a birthcert myself if i go to the town hall where we registered the birth?

What do you guys think? can i ask at the final hearing to be allowed pick her up myself or even for mum to bring her the first time.
can i say i dont want the name double barreled as i feel my name will be dropped?
Can i ask to have her for 2 weeks in summer rather than 1 and could i have her for 5 days on the shorter midterms also?
if i say that grandad is a heavy drinker and i couldnt rely on him to commit to this would i be ripped apart.
Would me asking for all this look bad for me after cafcass recommeding it do the courts always go with what cafcass say?

i am starting on my statement for the final hearing should all this be in it?

Sorry for the long story thanks lads.

Hi scooby

The first thing that occurs to me is that you don't seem to wholly trust your solicitor. You need to resolve this one way or another - she is there to act for you, and if you don't feel she is doing this, then you need to either make sure that she appreciates how you feel, or change your solicitor (or represent yourself).

I'm not sure how the courts would feel about you applying for an Irish passport, but if that's feasible, then I'd certainly raise it with them - take signed application forms with you to court (along with the birth certificate, which you should be able to apply for by phone from the registry office where her birth was registered) so that if the court agrees, your ex can sign them on the spot if necessary. As far as travelling is concerned, perhaps you could travel to England the first couple of times and accompany your daughter and your ex's father back, but after that I don't see any reason why you should't be asking to bring her back on your own.

thanks for that
i suppose im just worried abouthow it will all go i think its because i get legal aid she doesnt realy put the effort in.
dont know if i could represent myself in court i wouldnt know where to start.

Do the courts usualy only give the amount of contact cafcass reccomend?
ive applied for passport application form i didnt know i had to get mums signature. my solicitor said i dont have funding to bring it up in court think she was tryn to put me off.

that is a great idea about also traveling with her and grandad would of never tought of that.

Hi Scooby

I'm not sure what the procedure is for applying for a passport where your ex has residency, especially since it's not a UK passport - I don't think it's something you necessarily want to do without the court's knowledge, so I'd say that it does need to be raised in court. I suppose you could have all the forms ready, and assuming the court agree to your daughter travelling to Ireland, raise it there and then as an option to apply for a separate passport so no "mishaps" happen with the UK passport. With UK passports, someone (apart from family) needs to sign the back of the passport photo who knows your daughter (eg school teacher) so I'm not sure how you'll get this sorted, but the UK passport may help with this.

The situation with your solicitor isn't very helpful, I'd forgotten it wwas on legal aid, so changing solicitors isn't easy I believe, and unfortunately, because you have a solicitor, the CCLC can't give advice. I'm not sure how the funding works - but would it be feasible for you to represent yourself in court and have your solicitor do the paper work and help you with preparation? That way, you may be using the funding more efficiently - yoji has posted a good guide on representing yourself in court at the top of the legal section, so I'd have a read of this, and hopefully he may be able to give further advice when he's next on.

Thanks for that actd

Yes in ireland the Garda have to sign the back of the passport photos too. i have been onto the irish embassy in england and they are sending me out the application and information i need to apply they said its straight forward as she automaticly has irish citezenship because im irish. but i think i would have difficulties with mum agreeing but ill see how i get on with it.

Im hoping i get the same judge as she did ask mum at the last hearing to agree to allow my daughter come to ireland this month for christmas and told her if the cafcass report says the child should go to ireland. she will be going and to get used to it.
im applying for a defined contact order would i need to have my solicitor for this?
Also on the letter from the court it says my hearing is at 10.30 with duration time approx 3hrs but is placed on the continuous list so may not start untill afternoon and follow on till the next day. is there a reason for it to drag on so long?

i am going see if i can make an app with my solicitor and ask again about passport and if i can also ask to travel with my daughter and her grandad to bring her to ireland .as usual she prob just rush me off the phone.
i will have a look at yoji's guide now thanks

Hi Scooby

Don't forget, legal assistance or not, your solicitor works for you, not the other way around, so unless she can give you a good legal reason for not going for the passport, I'd push her to go for it. The more you can get covered in this hearing, the fewer times you will have to go back, which is always preferable. As for whether you can do the defined contact yourself, technically, there is no need to use a solicitor at all - the important thing, if you represent yourself, is to be totally prepared, and if you can have a funded solicitor helping, that may help but you'll get a lot of help here, especially from yoji who has done it himself.
With regards the passport, if you can get to the stage where you have everything your ex needs to sign at the next hearing, the court may well put pressure on your ex to sign there and then.

The timings on the court are never precise - if you dont get the first hearing of the day, then any cases before yours can easily overrun and push yours back, and if yours also overruns, it could then run into the following day quite easily.

Hi scooby,

To me it seems like things are slowly but surely working out. The main issue being that Court is starting to look at pushing results.

Generally speaking regarding a few of your questions:

3hrs for a hearing in my opinion (for a final hearing at least) is an optimistic one. There is a strong chance that you could well be there after 6pm. I would say its highly unlikely to drag on for the simple fact that in a manner of speaking Courts, provided there is no welfare or safeguarding risk would be unlikely to hinder a result further. The main issue i would say to watch out for is possibly a question along the lines of: "What assurances can you give to guarantee you bringing your daughter back over the Christmas period"... its a potential question. If you think logically about the questions you may be asked there's a good chance you'll hit the nail on the head.

Regarding your question as to a Defined Contact Order, then yes you are welcome to put forward the specification of Christmas or other such events i.e. Your Birthday or yearly holidays. Be aware that as Ireland requires either a ferry or plane flight a defined Order could be applied loosely in that holidays you have so many weeks.

Its also up to you how the arrangement arrives regarding collecting and returning your daughter. As you are the parent who is not the custodian i'll hazard the court will make sure you are the one to collect and return her. Regarding the Double-Barrel name i would approach this with a sense of caution. I would go from the direction that: 1) Your name is added to your daughters and that your ex's husbands surname being added as a double-barrel will result in the dropping of my name and this has been done at school [and if anywhere else say these]. I would therefore say for you to urge the Courts to not uphold this request on grounds that when you have tried accessing educational issues this has presented hurdles for you to overcome that should not at all be affected. 2) You could argue also that you feel that your daughter has had the potential to have strong influences from your ex to agree to the name change, thus you feel that there could be an erosion of her identity (something which the Courts should take very seriously) and 3) i would be constructive in the approach of proving that this double-barreling serves no purpose as to the benefit of the child and it is clearly (with evidence) a motive of mother to have this.

If you wish to ask for 2wks in summer i certainly would and i would say that the Court should "support me, her Father in being allowed as much time to eachother as possible" and also specify the other instances you would like.

Do not mention the granddad part.

In short this would not look bad. The fact is CAFCASS are there merely as a representative of the child in this case and in most instances follow what is best for the child. Courts however can be swayed away from CAFCASS recommendations if they feel there are no worries.

Thanks yoji
I am happy with how its goin so far and looking forward to bringing my daughter to ireland.

My solicitor is sayn to have a think about name change because cafcass said it what my daughter wants but i truly belive its only because of family members telling her thats her because her mam and stepdad got married. When i seen my daughter school books with only stepdads 2nd name i asked my daughter why was that name on book she said. Because mam and stepdad got married.

If my daughter told cafcass she wants her grandad or mam to bring her to visit me and cafcass say i should take on board my daughters wishes. Could i realy say no i want to collect and bring her to ireland on my own?

And for the defined contact order i was thinking on sayn the 2nd half of all school holidays with 2 weeks in the summer i will pick my daughter up from the early flight and drop her back early evening. I no it will be difficult with exact dates as holidays change but i was hoping this would work so mum knows im due to hav her them weeks.
Do you tink on short midterms they will let me bring her to ireland for 4 or 5 days after cafcass sayn it might interfere with school?

Thanks

Hi Scooby

OK, some more thoughts on this. Firstly, you don't want to go into court with a fixed position on anything, it's much better to have alternatives that you can negotiate with. This means that a) the court will think you are being reasonable, b) if you don't get what you first wanted, but do manage to get your fallback, you won't come out of court feeling that you've lost (it's more important than you might realise) and your ex won't think she's won (which means that she might then go on to make silly demands thinking she can get away with it). Yoji's point is a good one - imagine that the courts do agree with the most pessimistic parts of the Cafcass recommendations and have your position prepared so that you can come out with some safeguards.

So, with that in mind, looking at the issues in hand:
1. The Name change - express clearly why you are opposed to this, and cite any examples where it's caused difficulty. But then your negotiating position would be that if the court feel that the name change is in your daughter's interests, then you would like safeguards put in place, and state what they should be. Bear in mind that the court order should routinely say that no person can cause the child to be known by a new surname without agreement of everyone with PR or the consent of the court. If your daughter's name does become double-barrelled, I would say that dropping your surname from that in school is doing exactly this, so a warning from the court not to do this might be useful.
2. Main school holidays - one question is how likely is your ex to stick to agreements? If you think she may make life difficult, then maybe go for the start of the holidays, rather than the end. That way, if anything "unforseen" crops up, you have the flexibility to move it to later on in the holidays, whereas if you have then end of the holidays, you have nowhere to allow the dates to slip to.
3. Half terms - I'd go in with what you want initially, but as a fallback, have you considered taking holidays over in the UK, something like Center Parcs perhaps, or stay in a Travellodge near to your ex and go for days out with your daughter - it will cost you in accomodation, but it will save you travel costs for your daughter, and there's less argument that it's disruptive.
4. With regards your ex's father accompanying your daughter, again go with the position that you want to collect and return your daughter on your own, but have the fallback position that for the first two or three occasions, your ex's father can accompany you both.

Basically, go in initially with exactly what you want, but be prepared to negotiate.

Hi scooby,

Having alternatives is good. And a Court will see you as hard headed if you are over demanding.

I still think its highly likely your daughter has had pressure to change her name from her mother. I'm expressly against this double-barreling as you can tell and feel that this does not have any bearing whatsoever on the welfare or safeguarding of the child. Thus it should not be an issue to be considered. You are afterall involved with your child, make regular contact and try to provide the best support possible.

I would agree with actd's post about opting for the start of the holidays, given the flexibility.

In terms of the actual question of CAFCASS mentioning this may interfere with School, this is of course very simple to overcome. Just simply state that "as her Father, i would encourage her to bring her homework for me to support her with. It allows me to have an involvement in her education :-)"

. Just simply state that "as her Father, i would encourage her to bring her homework for me to support her with. It allows me to have an involvement in her education :-)"

Brilliant - that's pretty much impossible to argue against 🙂

Thanks Lads,

yous are a great help.
I was talking to my solicitor yesterday and asked her does she understand my wishes and will she support me dont think she likes me telling her what i want or want her to do but she said she can only advise me on what to do and if im not happy with it she will do what i want.
she still tinks i should tink about the name if its what my daughter wants she doesnt seem to care that i feel my daughter was told to ask for this. Ive told her from the start i wont agree to change it she knows how strongly i feel about it. I wonder if she just doesnt want to put up a fight at the final hearing does she want me to agree to everything my ex wants for an easy life.

Sure all i can do know is be prepared and hope for the best but i will keep yous updated thanks for everything.

alrite lads

just in the middle of doing my statement has to be done by the 16th most of you know my position and i was just wondering if anyone had any advice on getting approx times put into a defined contact order given that i live in ireland and my daughter in the uk and i have to fly over i know exact dates and times wont work as im looking for half of school holidays
to take place in first half of holidays. i need to get as close as possible with dates and time because agreeing with mum is very difficult and we still can agree time only through solicitors and its always what she wants. my flight is always first over and last home so i can spend as much time possible with my daughter the flight i get over is 8am so id like to pick her up around 10am but usualy its 12 as mum says 10 is to early and dropping off i ask id like it to be 5pm but mum says this is to late and wants her dropped off before 12pm. this realy annoys me as mum knows my flight home isnt until 9pm and id realy like to spend all the time i have in england with her as we only see eachother every 8 weeks. do you think i could ask in the defined contact order that i collect my daughter when i land in uk am and return her late afternoon so i can spend as much time possible if this isnt in the order mum will want me to return my daughter at 10am and were missing out on a whole day. do yous think im been unreasonable wanting to bring her back in the afternoon? what way would i say it in the statement?
thanks lads

alrite lads

Realy need ur advice my final hearing is in 3 weeks the other day my ex said that ther was no need for final hearing that she will agree to let my daughter visit me 3 times a yr in ireland even tho i would like 6 times a yr and for me to visit her weekend when i can afford it.
Because i wont agree to that she is know saying she is going to make sure the final hearing doesnt go ahead in feb that shes going to delay it.

have yous any idea how she might be able to delay or cancel the final hearing? she waited to tell me this known i already had booked my flights accomodation what can i do?
she also got a new number so i cant contact her about agreeing times for contact etc says i have to go through her solicitor that i can ring my daughters phone for phone contact and thats it. there was supposed to be skype contact after xmas as i bought my daughter a notebook but mam is saying she cant get it working even tho i had set it all up and tested it for her and when i asked when she was going to sort it she told me to f off and if i had of bought a better notebook it might work and shes just going to get the internet turned off in her house so i can never skype my daughter. i bought 2 notebooks one for each of my daughters and they are great and work perfect ther not top of the range but i paid 250 each for them. im so stressed.

Hi scooby,

Question number 1: Do you have the "i'm going to delay it" remark in a text message or recorded in a letter/note?

She cannot cancel the final hearing. This will go ahead unless there is a medical reason, or some other form of emergency. I am just trying to second guess the processes here however what i would strongly urge that you do is to contact the Court immediately to discuss what your ex has said.

As you have already booked accommodation, flights etc... you will also need to explain to the Courts that this threat of cancellation if it goes ahead will cause you an unfair cost. To cover this you will need to write a letter to her Solicitor immediately under recorded delivery to explain to them what your ex wife has said and basically that regardless of this threat you expect that she will attend the hearing and that you have discussed this with the court. There is no need to put into the letter what the Court advised... her Solicitors will be aware of that. It seems now that financial attrition is being used against you.

Don't worry. If you want a letter drafting up to her solicitor, respond back here and i will arrange something for you. Don't stress your nearly there now.

hi yoji thanks for reply
The messages she sent me was in private messages on facebook.

i asked her why she doesnt want final hearing she replied then. " i do want a final hearing i just aint letting it be in feb" and then that she wants it after easter. obviously because my daughter is supposed to be visiting me at easter thats why she wants to delay and also i think its because she wasnt granted funding to change my daughters name and doesnt have the money yet to apply for the application herself.
my daughter told me the weekend that her mam is having a new baby in june could she use this to delay it?
who do i ask for in the court when i phone?

thanks

Hi scooby,

Not overly familiar with the facebook thing but do you have a copy of the transcript? Or have screen prints of it somewhere?

So essentially you could also highlight that the delay she is wanting is deliberately to affect your time. There is actually given she is pregnant the possibility that this pregnancy could be used to stall the final hearing.

Given the extra information you need to:
- Contact the Court where the hearing is to be based. You will need to speak to someone in the Family Department. Give them your case number and request that these notes of your conversation//worries be added to the case notes as you feel that they will be needed at a future point. You can also request that these be included within any future hearings.
- Write a letter to your ex's Solicitor to say that: "Following a conversation between myself and your client, she has informed that she will "stall the final hearing" date that is due to go ahead on [Date of Final Hearing]. I have contacted the Court to relay my concerns of this disclosure"... thus you would also need to say you feel that the nature of this type of refusal is a continued detriment to the Rights of your daughter etc.

Again its difficult to ascertain the judgements that would be made in Court, however going off similar cases the above actions would preponderate your position very much.

One thing i will say however is, if she does not attend Court deliberately without giving an excuse then a Court would be hard pressed to make her attend there and then on the day. Your being there however you will "have the floor" and will have the opportunity to include updates to any such statement.

Thanks yoji

ye ive saved a copy of the conversation to my email but when i try to print it its not turning out im not great with computers or printers but hopefuly this will do if i need to produce it.
im going to phone the court in the morning would they be ok with me phoning to tell them my worries and would they be used to people ringing in a simular position to me.should i tell them shes pregnant and could she use this to postpone?

thanks again

Easiest way I can suggest is when you have the message on your screen, this copies the screen to the clipboard, then go into word and to paste the contents into the document.

Hi scooby,

Yes give them a call and say that you want this noted on your file for the final hearing should the actual hearing not go ahead. Explain that you have now booked flights and accommodation and your ex-wife is aware of this. To be honest the pregnancy issue is not an issue at all however you could have an issue where she books appointments with the midwife to coincide with that exact date at that exact time.

worked perfect thanks for that

hi lads 1 week to the final hearing and just wondering what to expect when i get to the court who will be in the court room?and have you any idea what i will be asked ?
i think my ex has a barrister. i have got some free advice but am worried as i was told they will try to make out that its not good for my daughter to come visit me.what should i say if they say this?
Also mum wont agree to me getting an irish passport as she said she will apply to get her one herself and i was wondering could i ask for this again in court.
Mum has said she would allow my daughter come to visit me at easter and that her grandad will have to come the 1st time but that it will only be for a couple of days as her grandad works fulltime.i will be travelling with them also well that is my plan. Caffcass had recommended she come for a week as a couple of days wouldnt be enough time for her to relax and settle in. could i say im not happy that the contact arrangements been so short because of grandads work?
Also my ex says mid terms are to short for travelling over to see me is ther anything i could say to show the court that its not that short including weekeds ther 10 days long i suggested i have contact for 5 days. flight is only 50min and i live 10 min from airport.
Anything else i might be asked and not expect?
thanks

Hi

I've asked the legal experts from CCLC to pop on and give any advice they can, so keep checking back on here.

Hi scooby,

Well done so far. Really pleased for you 🙂

Hearing

You will meet with her Barrister (just like in the films) he will put his opinions from your ex-wife to you and you will just need to give your opinion back. It can sometimes get a little heated. Its important to be careful how you say some things as Barristers are very good at manipulating your words and leaving you on the hook. But don't worry, just be honest. Its by far the best policy and will shine through in Court.

If the Barrister tries to make out it is not good for your Daughter to visit, i would simply say you disagree. She is entitled to know her Father and family. She will spend good quality time with you, you would like her to bring homework, for you to help her with and take part in activities with her. To be honest i can't think of any questions that they could ask that could actually threaten you. Its very very clear you are trying to be involved and keep in touch. I would expect the Courts to support you in this.

Relating to the Passport, its unlikely the Courts will entertain the idea at a Final Hearing. This actual hearing is relating to the continuation/support of Contact happening. The Irish Passport is not a crucial aspect of this. A separate application to Courts if there is a refusal will likely be needed.

Mid terms are not an issue. You've answered your worry that flights are merely 50mins, and you live not 10mins from the airport. There is no reason why Contact should not be supported. You are prepared to meet the cost of flights, transport and are looking forward (and you could add you know your Daughter is too) to spending some good time over in Ireland.

Questions you might be asked you may not expect? There is usually one or two questions a Barrister can ask that might catch you a little off guard but you should be able to think on your feet quickly enough. In any event if i remember correctly, your ex wife was triyng to influence your daughter into taking her new married name? That sort of question will certainly carry some weight if you pitch it back at difficult questions.

Hi

I've asked the legal experts from CCLC to pop on and give any advice they can, so keep checking back on here.

Ah, my mistake. Because you don't live in mainland Britain, the CCLC aren't able to advise you, even though the case is in a UK court.

If you need any advice on top of what yoji has given (though I think his answer is very comprehensive), then if you are in Northern Oreland, you can contact the Northern Ireland Law Centre on:
028 9024 4401 (Belfast) or
028 7126 2433 (Derry)

or contact a CAB or Law Centre if you are in Eire.

Good luck, and keep us up to date.

alrite lads

just tought i let yous know everything went great a court i did get what i hoped for and a little bit more 🙂
the judge decided not to change my daughters name he did think that it was more what mum wanted and because my daughter wasnt been told that i was her father and mums partner was stepdad he felt he cudnt change the name until she understood proper that i was her dad. but he did say he wud look at it again in 2 yrs to give my daughter a chance to have proper contact with me and my famiy in ireland.
not looking forward to that but least its another 2 yrs she gets to have my surname.

so ill be picking my daughter up in 2 weeks time shes coming for a week at easter 🙂
still waiting on mum to get the passport sorted hopefuly she gets it in the next 2 wks.

Congratulations Scooby 🙂

Very happy for you Sir!

Hope all goes well with the Passport. Good decision on the part of the Judge too!

excellent result. I don't think it will be a problem in 2 years - by that time everyone will know her by her current name, so a change will be very disruptive.

Well done mate! Enjoy your time together over Easter!

🙂
Excellent news scooby

Have a great Easter holiday with your daughter and family.

I know its been a rollercoaster ride and a struggle from what ive read but you have
done fantastic so far and are a great Dad.