[Solved] Final Hearing

Do you have any grounds for appeal?

Just spoken to my son (he really wasn't talking much last night) and he said that the CASCAF report will be sent on the 6th September and the final hearing (HE THINKS) is October. The hearing yesterday was FFH only (HE THINKS).

He is only very young and was completely overwhelmed by all the allegations yesterday, so hopefully he has got this right that it was only the FFH yesterday.

I will await the documents from yesterdays' hearing and update the group.

Fingers crossed it was Zero Contact until the final hearing and then the decision will be made in October... not sure but does that sound right?

I'm certainly no expert, but that does sound about right. Yesterday's sounds like it was a Fact Finding Hearing, and therefore an interim order has been made for no contact until the Final Hearing in October.

I'm gobsmacked at the outcome of the Fact Finding Hearing, considering there was no evidence. Your poor son 🙁

Hi there

This is just awful for your son, I can’t believe the judge has been so shortsighted. The trouble is, the onus of proof in a civil court is a lot less than a criminal court.

How sad that the ex partner won’t at least write a letter to the court to inform them of the truth. Is there any way you could talk to her and convince her that it’s the right thing to do?

The fact that zero contact has been ordered doesn’t look good if I’m honest, if the Judge was of a mind to introduce contact, I would have thought he would at least have made provision for indirect contact as a start.

I would certainly be looking into the possibility of an appeal, but if he could get a signed letter from the ex partner, he could make an application within the proceedings for urgent new directions, forging evidence is a very serious matter and if that can be proven, it would likely make all the difference.

All the best

Ok, just trying to make sense of the proceedings.

From what you say I gather than a) the hearing this week which was reduced form a 2 day to a 1 day hearing was in fact set up to be specifically a fact finding hearing and b) contrary to the impression I got form your first posts, this is not a final order.

I do not think there's any doubt as you son fears, that this may have been a final hearing, this would not make sense given that a CAFCASS report has been ordered.

Now, if this is the situation, then it is not out of the ordinary for an interim order of no contact to have been made, pending the CAFCASS report, regardless of how fair or unfair that may be seem. The courts must tread with care when there are substantial allegations, particularly if some have been found to be true.

It is not clear from your latest posts if the judge indeed gave judgement that he found some of the allegations to be true? Again as I explained in my previous post, finding an allegation to be fact does not mean no direct contact at all, and perhaps not even limited by any way direct contact. IT is all down to the type of allegation found, seriousness, child present or not, one off or repeated and many more variables..

But, finding allegations to be true the court will take a more cautionary approach until the CAFCASS report is completed.

Now, you say this in your post: "...and due to the amount of DV claims from the EX he has go with that these are true.."

This does not stand as sound analysis nor does it come across as the judge having made clear findings against your son? There are cases whereby literally dozens of allegations from (usually) mother to father are made, and in fact finding all can be found to not be true. The notion that a judge would have made findings of fact' against a party on the basis that there are so many allegations against them by the other party would be wide open to strong criticism. It simply can not stand. Hence, my view is that that comment was made in a passive and critical manner towards your son. I am literally only speculating based on the very limited information you have provided.

So the question becomes, where any findings of fact made, and if so what type and of allegations were found?

The influence of the CAFCASS report is enormous, in fact often decisive in this type of case.

Once you have details do share them and lets take it from there.

Chapter

I think you’re right Chapter, it’s more common for no contact until the section 7 is done.

I still think this forged evidence is pivotal, and I would certain speak to CAFCASS about it during interview. If his ex doesn’t want to be part of the court process, might she consider providing a letter that he can show to the CAFCASS officer at least?

Did they not even allow indirect contact?

edit - seen your other post now so merged the two threads together.

No DV... but not even contact centre or indirect contact! System is fooked up!

full on water works by the ex...and lies by a a close friend...sounds like she is a good actress....appeal it

Thank you Everyone - i will keep posting more information as I get it from my son.

My son did have a copy of his previous partner passport and showed the image to the judge, to prove the signatures were completely different. The judge agreed the signatures were not the same.

On speaking more to my son last night. He said the Judge said at the hearing he would take the Previous Partner (False) statement and look at it over / read it the lunch period and make a decision if it would be allowed as evidence.

He took it, read it in the lunch break - came back and then said he is not putting it into the evidence. so very confused about this, as he has read it, (we haven't seen a copy of this False statement) so that must cloud his judgement. but we now cannot apppeal it as he is not allowing it in to the evidence...

With regards to the FFH. My son had 5 allegations on the Scotts Schedule
1: Applicant abusive, threatening her, controlling and coercive behavior
2: Applicant physically abusive and violent including slapping, and threatening to kill her
3: Applicant physically abusive to the child and emotionally abusive.
4. Applicant harmed a 3rd party in presence of the child
5: Applicant threatened to abduct child.

The Judge found all the above statements to be TRUE.

We did reply to all the above and try to prove them to be untrue with references to the police disclosure reports. The 3rd party is his previoius partner (which did not happen). Abduct the child was he picked him up early one day to drop him to nursery and refused to go into the house to have a cup of tea.. Abusive to the child (never happened) and she states my son taught his son to call THE EX a C***T which is so not true.

To be really honest all the above did not happen - but we could not prove with factual evidence that it did not happen, when the judge has said that most DV cases happen behind closed doors and victims are so frightened to call the police and tell a family member.

THE EX has completely controlled all our lives over the last 4 years. She has abused verbally and theartened to not let us see our grandson or my son to see his son - if we did not do as she stated. We looked after him when she went on holiday with various boyfriends, took him to doctors appointments, babysat anytime, gave her money and just jumped to her every whim.
She would turn up at my sons previous job and wait in the car park.
if he wouldn't come out she would ring his work place constantly abusing anyone who answered the phone. (my son left the job)
She would park outside his partner house in her car with the music on full blast and call the house phone over and over again. They would unplug the house phone and turn off the mobiles.
My son brought her a car on HP instead of Child Support, after 8 months she didnt want it and then told CSA that she hasnt been paid for 8 months (she did close the case when she got the car) - we paid over 5K in back payments.

The list goes on and on and on.. but now she is the one is controlled, beaten and scared!!

She fooled us for a very long time and now she is doing the same to the judge and I really cannot see how we will get contact if she does not want it to happen. You just can't beat CRAZY.

Ok, these details do clear some things up.

I dont have anywhere near enough time to write what I would like to right this minute as I am working, but I did want to say this.

Decisions on fact finding are perhaps the hardest to appeal against due to their discretionary nature and this is reiterated in case law. It is not impossible but very very difficult. There would have to be serious error or omission by the judge. For instance, had the letter by the ex in your sons case been allowed on the face of what was likely a forged signature then this finding (and only this one) would have been open to strong criticism/appeal and likely overturned (though not necessarily found to be untrue if you follow me).

I think the reality must be faced that the judge has made findings of fact on what appear to be allegations of domestic abuse (as it is now called which encompasses physical, emotional , sexual etc..) some of which are at first glance of a considerably serious nature. Hence the interim order for no contact and the direction of a CAFCASS report.

There is no point speculating on what CAFCASS will investigate and report and what recommendations they will make. You must take this one step at a time. There may be mitigating factors such as recommendation to attend domestic abuse program following which there may be some other recommendation for contact.

I think it is important to accept that at least to some extend, perhaps quite drastically, those findings will affect the level and type of contact that you son will be allowed with his child, at least for the immediate future, not necessarily for the long term. At this point it is speculation which is not helpful, you must deal with it as it comes.

I would suggest, if there is any supporting evidence that your son can find, to refute any of the findings, then it may be helpful to present these to CAFCASS during their enquiries.

Chapter

p.s. you may find this to be of interest:

http://www.civillitigationbrief.com/2015/05/12/appealing-on-the-judges-findings-of-facts-a-trial-is-not-a-dress-rehearsal-but-the-first-and-last-night-of-the-show/

I agree, speculation is unhelpful. Take it a step at a time and concentrate on the upcoming CAFCASS REPORT, if in fact thats what has been ordered.

Absolutely try and gather as much evidence to present to the CAFCASS adviser..... hopefully they will look at it with an open mind, although they may be swayed by the FoF. Theres no doubt the finding has made things much more difficult.

In these situations CAFCASS can make a recommendation for the “abuser” to attend a DVPP... which can be another layer of distress for someone that is essential innocent of the allegations, because to attend the course they have to admit their guilt... salt in the wounds for an innocent man.

All the best

Thanks Guys - all very helpful.

We took the decision from the beginning not to "Sling mud" at the EX and believe me when have lots of texts and I kept a diary for the past 2 years, as i knew one day this would come.
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However with respect of evidence - I am at a loss as what would be classed as evidence. Its is so hard to prove something didn't happen or even exist.

The judge said that victims of abuse do not report to the police as they are controlled and scared. However THE EX reported to police about missing money - then found it was a mistake. We had a pair of boots of my grandsons which were 2 years too small, I gave them to a friend, EX found out and wanted them back, She reported to the police we had stolen them. the list goes on.. so she was not reluctant to report to police at all.

But without going down the SHE DID, WE DID, SHE SAID, WE SAID - I dont know what evidence to present.

BTW I have typed out and put the WHOLE 2 YEAR diary in my sons bundle - but doubt it would be looked at.