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Hi all,
I recently had a contact order put in place via the courts. Part of the order states that I can take Ellie on holiday provided i give 4 weeks notice and that i don't take her out of the country for more than 4 weeks.
Anyway, I've been engaged for approx a year and just before the court case started, we decided to get married in 2012. We hadn't decided where or exactly when, but we had an idea it would be in august and so i requested 2 weeks off work from 20th august just in case.
So, outside the court, Ellie's mum was being all nicey nicey and asked whether we were going on holiday in 2012. I told her that we were getting married, we weren't sure when but were going to look at venues in february half term and would let her know...but it will probably be in august followed by 2 weeks honeymoon (with the kids) so asked her to hold off making any plans until i confirmed our wedding dates in february. She did ask me to avoid the end of august but i said i would let her know asap as it obviously depended on getting time off work, when the venue had a slot etc.
Well, the rest is predictable. Days after the official court order arrived in the post, she sent a letter giving notice that she would be taking ellie on holiday for 2 weeks from 20th august. Annoyed and very upset, i decided to not let her continue having a disruptive influence on my new relationship, and so I tried to move my holiday at work. Unfortunately, my job means that only 2 of us can be off at the same time and with other colleagues having families, the rest of the school holidays was fully booked. The closest i could get was the last week or so of school followed by the first week in the school holidays.
On that basis, we've booked the wedding, the honeymoon, invites have been sent, accommodation booked the lot, money paid out. I then was made aware that despite the contact order saying about giving 4 weeks notice and not for more than 4 weeks abroad, plus holding parental responsibility, i still have to get permission from ellie's mum to take her out of the country. So i wrote to ellie's mum detailing all of the above dates etc and that i had let the school know that ellie would be missing 8 days of school, and although this is regrettable, it's a special occasion, kids don't do a lot during the last week or so anyway and it was the only time i could get off partly in the summer holidays etc etc.
She's written back refusing to agree, stating that ellie is struggling at school etc etc. She isn't struggling, she's where most kids are of her age, however, she used to be above everyone else. Several letters have gone back and forth but she wont agree. I even pointed out that i wouldn't dream of refusing her permission to take ellie to portugal in april, should she remember to ask.
So, the long and short of it is, how do i get some sort of order to allow ellie to attend her dad's wedding and honeymoon with the rest of her family? And any idea how successful that would be? And how long does the process take? Would it be a load of court hearings again like the contact order?
Thanks in advance, and apologies for the long post!
Hopefully yoji will add some advice to this, but unfortunately I think you've already guessed that if you want to have your order enforced in your favour, then you will have to go back to court as any other actions will probably not guarantee results. If and when you go back to court, I would ask the judge to be very aperiodic about the penalties should your ex not comply with the order, just in case she goes along with the court but then doesn't allow your daughter to attend at the last minute when it's too late to do anything.
Hopefully yoji will add some advice to this, but unfortunately I think you've already guessed that if you want to have your order enforced in your favour, then you will have to go back to court as any other actions will probably not guarantee results. If and when you go back to court, I would ask the judge to be very aperiodic about the penalties should your ex not comply with the order, just in case she goes along with the court but then doesn't allow your daughter to attend at the last minute when it's too late to do anything.
That's the thing, even if she'd agreed straight away I would still have been worried about it until I'd actually got ellie, and wouldn't put anything past her.
That raises another question, which is can she be forced to give me ellie's passport? I currently have it, but being a nice man I'll be handing it back before they go to Portugal.
It depends on what you mean by 'forced' - they aren't going to send round the heavies to fetch it, realistically they can only penalise if she doesn't comply. In my opinion, it's best to ask the judge, while in court, to explain to your ex the consequences of failing to comply. I would also have it written in to the order that she is to hand over the passport a month (at least) before you need it - that way if she doesn't comply then you still have time to do something about it. I would also express to the judge that you have suspicions that she may be tempted not to comply as long as you have evidence of this - if it's verbal, then transcribe the conversation and present it in evidence. If your ex disputes that she wouldn't comply, then she should have no objections to having severe penalties imposed because it will never happen.
Edit: - Reading this back, it looks like 'comply' might be my word of the day.
Hi Tim,
Sorry to hear your situation and sorry i haven't been around for a couple of days.
Do you have an existing Order that says eg you have ellie every weekend, half of holidays and holiday with 4wks notice?
If it is you are looking for a specified amount of days, and that this conflicts with school, it won't stop you raising a C100, that is your right to do. Even if you have a current Order... that Order is that Order and you will need a fresh Application submitted.
There is a guide to raising the Contact Order at the top of this forum, please make sure however that you read my last post concerning a holiday loophole that can be exploited by malicious ex's. This last post on this also details the information relating to steps to take regarding the Passport question too. Essentially, you need to secure it with enough time to re-order a new passport if worst comes to worst. And in direct answer to your question: Court can request that the Passport be handed over, as actd says "force" isn't a word that goes down too well. Either way information contained in that post is tip top spot on the most sensible set of procedures, and i would suggest that you raise your Contact Application/Order in respect of that info 🙂
I notice you have mentioned certain claims by your ex about your daughter being behind at school. Naturally, you dispute this. A report card or School Report that says the contrary should be kept or ascertained by you fairly soon, just request this from the school to show her progress.
In my experience and opinion, you should actually be looking at 2 hearings maximum, however Courts will try to mention Family Mediation... as always any agreement reached through Mediation is verbal, non-binding and unenforceable. So agreements if you opt for Mediation should be brought back to Court to be put into an Order. The 2 hearings process should take between 6-12wks.
Something positive for you to remember here is, your ex will have to prove to the Panel why your Daughter going on a holiday/honeymoon with other members of her family is a detriment. She won't be able to do this of course and the school excuse is clearly clutching at straws. The Panel should rightly find that this will be an enjoyable, positive experience with immediate family.
Any problems let me know 🙂
Hi,
I know it's been a few weeks, just brushing up on my knowledge before completing the C100!
Anyway, i mentioned in my original post that Ellie's mum was also going abroad on holiday, I only know this because Ellie herself told me they're going to Portugal. Now, my understanding is that its not just me that needs permission to take her out of the country, my ex also needs to ask me for permission, and if she doesn't it's classed as kidnap. Is this right or does this just apply to us dads, as usual?
If so, she hasn't yet asked and they go in just over a month. She may not even realise. Just wondering should i keep quiet about this and then when she does go abroad without my permission, take action? If so, what action? Phone the police and report a kidnap? Or just write to the court?
I hope this doesn't sound as if i'm being malicious, I'm not. But if it can help my situation and support my case for Ellie coming to my wedding, and potentially applying for an improved contact order in the future, then i'll consider it.
Hi tim,
Nice to hear back from you 🙂
You are correct, if there is no Residence Order standing, then yes she will need your express permission in order to do this.
In answer to your first question, technically it would be, yes... however given what i'm sure we know regarding the family courts, seeking to gather a preponderance of evidence to back up this.. is nigh on impossible. And, according to many newspapers i can think of some reports of Fathers being hauled into Court for this, but never any Mothers.
No you are certainly not being malicious. In fact, exercising your rights is a more suitable statement. From the outset you need to be the bigger person here.
Your ex will if she has a Solicitor acting, be well aware of this. A Solicitor will have informed them of the Law, and to be honest, if they are aware of the holiday and have not done so... in my opinion should not be practising Law.
To the matter:
You have two options...
1) You put the question to your ex, are you not going to ask my permission to take your daughter abroad and negotiate it that way (a likely response i can tell you is "I don't need your permission")
2) If your ex takes your daughter abroad, write a letter to the Court, including your case number and childs name and DOB, underneath this include a short sentence along the lines of: To be Annexed with Case Number: [CASE NUMBER]. The contents of this letter will need to state that you are currently aware that your ex has now left the UK and is holidaying in Portugal and that this has been done without your ex having sought your permission to have your Daughter taken abroad.
You will then need to carefully state your opinion on this diplomatically, that you are in agreement to your daughter going away, your having no objection to this however you feel that the proper channels have not been used by [MRS X] and that you find it a contradiction of the measures which you have had to take in order to be allowed to take [DAUGHTERS NAME] abroad.
Sign and deliver a copy to both the Court and in addition, include a copy to her Solicitor sent First Class Recorded Delivery.
Note: This letter is to be sent on the first day your ex takes your Daughter away and provided that she has still failed to ask your permission
For what its worth i'm in the same boat as you almost exactly... and in 3months i'm likely to be sending the above... if you need any more advice i'm clued up 🙂
hi im new to this site come on today to gain some advice for the exact same thing, i approached my ext to tell her that i will be getting married next year and asked if the children could attend to which she agreed, but all this week she has told my children that they will not be going and that she will ruin my wedding ( ex's are great like that).. i would be greatful for any advice on this matter to see if i could apply for a court order even if it is just for the day as i wont be having a honey moon, as it stands i have my children from friday evenings round to sunday nights anyway so it will not infringe on her time with them....... hope all goes well for you and your daughter gets to your wedding
Hi Reynolds,
Yes, indeed. You could and are entitled to raise a Contact Application that stipulates the dates of the wedding. Just as an additive... how old are your children now?
Yes, some ex's can be great like that 🙂
One thing she could try to do is to prevent contact at the last minute, which, although against the contact order, is too late to do anything about. I'd therefore try to have staying contract for a few days leading up to the wedding, so if you ex witholds contact, you have a chance to do something about it.
Hi. My partner and I are getting married in June. My partner has 50/50 joint residency court ordered. When we booked the wedding his son was with us. A further court order increased it from 5 day rolling to a week and that now means he is with his mum. My ex has requested they swap weekends to allow for a smooth transition and to include his son in the wedding. His ex has refused and stated she will drop him off at 9am and pick up at 8pm. While this sounds reasonable we are concerned about the emotional impact and how settled his son will be as his mum is emotionally manipulating their son and cafcass have urged her twice to consider how her actions are putting their son at risk of parental alienation which she could not care less about. Is their anything we can do to ensure his son (who is 6) is able to stay with us the weekend we get married to avoid the emotional harm from his mum. (She most recently told him Christmas Day as she was dropping him off for court ordered time that daddy loves his new children more than him and buys them more than he gets him and to look how many presents they got)
Hi there
As she has refused your request, your only other options are mediation (which is a requirement before court action) and if that fails, an application to court for a Specific Issue Order. (SIO)
However as your wedding is only four months away, you could circumvent mediation by applying for an urgent SIO application.
Weddings only happen once and are important family affairs, so it’s only reasonable that he would want his child there.
You could try writing to her formally and asking her to reconsider and that refusal would see a return to court for a Specific Issue Order in the matter. Impress on her how important the day is to you all and that it’s only right that he be fully involved in that. Be civil but firm and give her a timeframe to reply in. You could get a solicitor to write the letter, if you feel she may take more notice of it coming from someone official.
Best of luck
To be honest, I would consider going straight for the SIO. If you tell her you'll go to court if she doesn't agree, she may well agree and then change her mind at the last minute, at which point it would be too late for the SIO.
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