[Solved] Grandparents access

Hi Robin

Have you considered Relate - they are for relationships in general, not just husband/wife so may be able to give advice on your whole situation. We are able to ask them to give an opinion on here if you wish.

Blinking heck Robin, you have got your self in a sticky mess. Look how she is now and this will give you an idea how she will be if you split up. !! Get the old bat out of your home and start being the man of the house, dont mean cave man stuff, but you have two very controlling women, who are bullying you. Plan what you are going to do, does your wife work, does your mother in law contribute to bills, cant your wife cope if shes getting her mum to do chores, (get a cleaner)
are you the bread winner
why are you letting her stop your side of the family seeing the kids, THERE YOUR KIDS TOO. stand up to them and stop this bullying now. gggrrrr

Hi Robin and welcome 🙂

Do you still love her? If the answer is yes then you must try and take control of this situation. Take her down the pub or for a meal and tell her in a firm but kind manner that enough is enough. Outline the changes that need to happen and the ways in which you can both work together to achieve them.

I think you certainly need to get her out of her comfort zone and the influence of her mum and into a few sessions with Relate or Mediation. She needs to understand that relationships work much better with give and take. I think perhaps you've let her have her own way for far too long and she's behaving like a spoilt child. Thats not placing all the blame on your shoulders, but once you have acknowledged your mistakes then you're on the road to putting them right.

ak57 is right, I would make it a priority to get the mother in law into her own place ASAP... if you take control of that then its a great first step. Try the Right Move website, they do all the work for you, just type in your requirements and voila, up come a list of properties.

Christmas is coming and its a time for families to get together, remind her of this and the importance of families for your children...Its unfair for her to visit her issues with your family onto the kids, by her actions the children are suffering ans she needs to recognize this.

Good luck with it all 🙂

Thank you for the replies, I do appreciate it very much.

I’d like to say a bit more about how the situation has developed. Our first child was unplanned, and my wife was worried about the birth and the effect on getting back to work. Therefore when she asked for her parents to come and live in our house to help her with the new baby, I accepted it because I wanted her to have the best support possible. (My preference was that I leave my job for a period and help her back into work). We only had a small two-up-two down cottage, so they slept on sofas in our open plan living room and we all sacrificed a lot of privacy. Somehow this lasted for over one year.

Unfortunately there were issues with the birth of our first child two years ago that caused her to fall out with me and my mother, and she was more determined than ever that her mother be around to provide support that she did not trust me to provide. I decided to work as hard as I could to help at home as well as my full time job (e.g. doing night wakenings every night so that she could get some sleep). It was tough going, because we had frequent arguments. But I felt that it would be in the best interests of the child and me in the long term. The good news was that she managed to get a decent full time job a few months later. But things reached a low point soon afterwards when I was spat on for the second time, and I said that things had to change, and my preference was that the in-laws move out and we rent them somewhere for about six months until the child got a nursery place. I also said that my wife needed to do a bigger share of the domestic work, rather than expecting her mother to do it. This was not supported by my wife or by them, so reluctantly I allowed the arrangement to carry on for a while and whilst we had joint counselling.

Things did improve last year to the extent that we felt we could have another child (that was a tough call for me) and move to a slightly larger house. My wife became pregnant again very quickly last summer. She was not enjoying the job, and wanted to look for a new one during the second maternity leave.

Earlier this year we had a big run-in when she wanted to arrange christenings, starting with our first child, but not to invite my father or my sister. I am not religious and was keen to support her having the ceremonies, but was not prepared to treat my close family unfairly. After some time speaking with trusted people, I settled on having naming ceremonies for each child, with all my family invited to these, and the German christenings at the German church for her small family (mother and godparents – her father did not want to go). The worst point was when she threatened to commit suicide and left the house – after this, I insisted that she come with me to see Relate, and unfortunately, as I suspected, the counselling confirmed that there was never any intent in her threat but an attempt to manipulate me to coming round to her point of view.

She has always wanted her parents to live separately to us, near us, but they are not married and her father (not blood father) controls all the financial assets, and he also has huntingdon’s disease. After looking at some flats earlier this year and me expressing concerns about how we would finance the debts, as well as the childcare, the father-in-law decided he’d had enough and went back to his native country (Germany) anyway. My mother in law wanted to stay, but she can’t afford to buy a flat, or rent one, on her pension. So she is living in our separate front room.

In terms of counselling - yes this has been an important feature of the last couple of years. I have had private counselling two years ago, then counselling through our local council. Also we have had two lots of joint counselling - firstly through a child/ parent relationship service, secondly through Relate earlier this year. Has it helped? Yes - but more from being able to deal with things on a day by day basis. The long term solutions haven't been so obvious through this process.

The sessions I had together with my wife certainly took her out of her comfort zone, and the Relate sessions (suspended when our second child was born) usually finished with her crying and very upset with me afterwards. Yes, we may need to re-start the sessions, but she thinks that it is me that needs the sessions, not her, therefore she is not keen to go back. I would have my work cut out to get her to go.

In terms of getting the mother-in-law into a separate place – that’s going to be difficult financially because the cost of property is so high here. We probably can’t raise enough money for something suitable, and might have to agree a short-term rent arrangement, which she and my wife do not want. I’ve consulted my financial advisor about this, and he does not think we can do it unless she can pay more than just the running costs of a flat. Obviously I’m worried about making a large commitment in case we do end up separating. And it’s hard to ignore the contrast with her position towards my family.

When my mother-in-law lives here, she does a lot of work around the house – washing, half the cooking, and looking after one or other child as and when. We have not been paying her for that and she has not been paying us towards bills. But she buys some of the food each week and regularly things for the children such as clothes from charity shops. I have told my wife that we need to be more explicit about she is and isn’t doing, eg pay her for her childcare, and she pay us for accommodation, so that it doesn’t feel as though anyone is being taken for granted. This sort of arrangement could then continue into her own place. It’s not easy to put a figure on it though.

We already have a cleaner, and the house is pretty low maintenance.

In terms of work and money, I have been the main earner for many years, but my wife has just gone back to work again and she’s now earning about 75% of my salary. I have been on paternity leave for a month until the end of the year. I take responsibility for all bills and mortgage, also car running, diy, lots of childcare, shopping, and planning and doing half the cooking. I’m actually weaning our second child at the moment.

Thanks for taking the time to explain everything Robin...you certainly have a lot on your plate! :unsure:

Isn't the mother in law entitled to any benefits or rent rebate? Have you thought about approaching the council? Is there no chance that she will want to return to her husband in Germany?

I'm at a loss as to where you can turn to be honest... you seem to have been there, done that, and got the t-shirt. Apart from yet another round of counselling the options are rather thin on the ground.

Why dont you print off these posts and give them to your wife to read and ask her what you should do to go forward, does she realize you are contemplating separation if things dont change?

Thank you again.
What I learned this year about my mother-in-law is that she had always wanted a second child. My wife was her only child - the father left soon after my wife was born, and my father-in-law already had a son and didn’t want another one. So I think these grandchildren are everything to her – it’s like the extra children she never had. When my wife asked her to come and take a major role with bringing them up, it would have been music to her ears. Her life back home had become very difficult – caring for my father-in-law’s elderly parents, then caring for hers, then caring for him as his disease kicked in five years ago. So she was keen to get away. The problem is that she has too little of her own life back home – few friends, hobbies, interests, no stake in their house which is all his – and a very strong sense of unfinished business wanting to bring up more children. She even referred to the children as a project. Obviously there is a lot of potential for things being done her way, especially when my wife has the same views, and difficulty for me in setting boundaries. You can imagine the sorts of situations this has created. It’s just lucky that generally I don’t have any major objections to how she likes to do things, and I have been pretty flexible.
His behaviour back at their home has made it even harder for her to go back –he has already been sectioned by the police, and various other things. Most likely he will end up in long-term care, and that his family house and money will all go to pay for this – if she did go back long term, she would probably have to rent a flat (rents are cheap over there).
I wouldn’t want to approach the council for rent subsidy, as it seems unfair to me that tax-payers here should subsidise her wanting to live in London.
I have discussed options with a couple of people that I trust, and certainly to speak to my wife about separation is one option. Unfortunately, the evidence is that when she falls out with people, including close friends, she tends to cut them out of her life. Therefore, the most likely reaction would be to want to take custody of the kids, rather than to make a sharing arrangement. A confidant has pointed out that if this happens when the kids are very young, I will not have a strong enough relationship with them going forward, and therefore there is a case for waiting a few years before going down this route. So yes, I could make the call now and hope that it results in a change of attitude from her, but I would need to be prepared to go through with it and risk losing the kids completely.
Her solution is something like this. We would buy her mum a flat nearby, to keep her mum in the area for at least ten years or so. Her mum would have unlimited access, continue to be heavily involved in raising the kids, and doing pre-and post-school when that comes. My mum, dad and sister would be able to see our children only for short visits, at times and circumstances that suit her, and with her present, until further notice (at least five years). As for Christmas etc each year, her preference would be to go to Germany for the whole holiday period, therefore to spend even two days before Christmas near my family is a big compromise as far as she is concerned, as she really can’t stand to spend any significant time with them. (I have not been back for Christmas Day for about eight years for various reasons). As far as domestic work is concerned, she thinks she should not be victimised as long as it gets done. But the problem is quite extreme – I cannot remember the last time she made me a meal.
Unfortunately, although I do love her, I can’t see us being together in the long term, and therefore I feel that I have to look into an exit plan so that at least I am prepared when the day comes. Hopefully I will recognise when the right time arrives.

..perhaps you could bargain with her...suggest that you will agree to buying the flat and all things mother -in-law, but she must give something in return, and that would be to allow you the freedom to take the children to see your family, which would allow them all to form the bond that is after all natural. That would be putting her children first and enriching their lives.

I know we are all "European" but there are cultural differences, and it would be good for the children to have a balance of both.

Well, good luck with it all Robin...you have a mammoth task on your hands, but I get the sense that you are a very competent man and will develop coping strategies and a way to weave yourself through it all. 🙂

Well I decided to post an update that sadly she won't have any sort of discussion connecting what I do for her family with what she will do for mine, and it's difficult to get a word in edgeways when trying to talk. Looks like I'll have to start actively pushing boundaries and collecting evidence for an exit plan, there's no getting through. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Hi Robin, it sounds like you have pretty much covered all areas. Did something happen for her to not like you parents and sister. Does your mum in law like your family.
Any one reading this would think it a god send to have a live in baby sitter/cleaner /cook and no wage, but I can understand how would want your place to yourself. (ever thought of telling the wife to live in a flat and to leave !!) and you keep the mum in law there. Some cultures have there mum look after the children. Can your wife cook ? I wouldnt really bother to much about her not cooking, it sounds like you have it all covered, what would she do if you just said you were to tired to cook a meal . I wouldnt leave if I was you as I expect your wife would stop contact and you would be fighting for it through the courts, I would build up a life outside the home, Golf, Gym , take the kids somewhere, swimming clubs, whackys, bike rides. Find a hobby , night classes, dancing any thing to get you a life of your own, you need some me time. Do you get on with your mum in law ? Your wife sounds lazy but also extremely spoilt. It must be hard for mum in law, no home , no future, I think shes trying really hard, shes proberbly terrified. Try and be the nicest person you can be, save some money in a secret account, for a rainy day, be nice to mum in law, get her on your side, she may be the key to gettingh through to your wife. Your doesnt want her moving to far a way as she would loose all that support, maybe your wife cant cope. Going to relate does open up wounds and can make you feel ill, andd somethings are best left alone. Enjoy your kids enjoy the fact you have help, and get a life outside of the home .

Thank you for the comments, taking the time to read through. What you've said is pretty much what I'm doing at the moment, I agree with the strategy to build up a life outside the home, however it's not easy in the short term when you've essentially been grounded except for Saturdays after bedtime. I'm taking it in little steps, starting with last week when I managed to get a couple of hours out at the leisure centre midweek after bedtime (not being in the centre of London made it acceptable). I do get on pretty well with the mother-in-law, but I know from past experience that I can't get too close to her because everything that I say gets fed back to my wife. I can and will carry on in the short term putting the children and family stability first, but I need to get my exit plan in place because realistically I will need to use it at some point - maybe in a few years, maybe longer, it's hard to say. Although it might sound like I've got a 'free' family support, in reality it's not free. The house is small for 5 people (80 sqm) so there is a big loss of privacy. Then there is continuing pressure to find and fund her her own place, so it's hardly a no strings attached situation. Also looking long term, she will want to stay heavily involved and of course the more she does and the more she stays involved, the more my wife will argue that we owe her to support her - and then who knows what kind of long term care she will need. Of course its normal to support the family, and usually I wouldn't think twice about it, but when I'm being denied quality time with the children with all my close family, I can't see it the same way.
Yes, there have been specific incidents with all my family on separate occasions that have caused upset to my wife, so she is not being totally irrational. The problem is that the incidents in my opinion do not justify her reaction and ongoing position. That may sound like I'm not supporting my wife, but basically she just hasn't put enough effort in to make the relationships work, and it wouldn't have been difficult to do. My family aren't perfect, but they are certainly nowhere near as difficult as many other families.
Taking this Christmas example, I thought we had an agreement that we'd spend one week in Germany over the Xmas holiday period and the weekend before Christmas with one night in Bristol. She has now said that it can't be the weekend before, it has to be the 15/16th, and we can't stay with any of my family, we have to stay in a hotel. With the logistics of it all, we get very little time with them, and certainly very little quality time. It just feels as though I'm getting pushed around. I would certainly never try to impose all these conditions on her and her family.
One the one hand, I can continue trying to negotiate everything, or I can start withdrawing my support from certain things, which feels like a slippery slope. It will have to be the former, but with a sensible exit plan in place so that if I have to threaten leaving one day, then I'm ready for the implications. Because although I hope that time will soften her perspective, there is no evidence yet that this will happen, so I have to assume that it won't.