[Solved] CSA Payments and Deceitful Ex-Partner

Hi

This is tricky, because you have done everything you can if you go by the book.

I'm not saying this is correct, and you have to weigh up having the CSA chasing you for arrears, but if I was in your situation, I would write to the CSA saying that you have confirmed with the college that your daughter is not at college, and are therefore cancelling the direct debit for maintenance (get a letter from the college confirming). Also confirm to them that you have reported your ex to the benefits office for fraud in this matter (quote time/date/reference number if you have it) and that she is therefore also fraudulently claiming child maintenance. At the same time you stop the maintenance, set up a separate account and start paying the same amount each month into this account - if you do lose this and the CSA come after you for arrears, then you have the money available. I would also go and see your MP asap to get him to raise the matter with the CSA - they can raise a priority complaint with the CSA that the general public cannot do.

With any luck, the first thing the CSA will do when they chase you for the arrears will be to go to court to get an order for the arrears - at that point, you should go to court with your evidence to say that there are no arrears because the claim is fraudulent - hopefully, the court will agree with you and that will hopefully be an end to it.

As I say, normally, we don't advise that the NRP stops paying maintenance, but I don't see that you have any choice.

Thanks for the reply and highlighting some points that I haven't considered.
Since putting the post up I've spoken to a "proper" caseworker, one who knows what's going on at the CSA rather than the ones that simply answer the phone.
I had to call them to query a refund which they had issues, it turned out that I was due a 1 month refund from May 2012, which was nice but looking on the other side of the coin it's taken them over 12 months to come to the conclusion that I was due a refund and send me the payment, they didn't even notify me of this and I was completely unaware until I contacted them to raise the issues I posted previously. This in itself does not fill me with confidence in receiving any form of back pay in the very near future.
I mentioned that I had reported my Ex to Child Benefit and explained the situation but in their eyes as my Ex is still receiving Child Benefit she is still entitled to Child Maintenance, they discussed the current situation with her which she confirmed that my Daughter was still in attendance/just finished college and as such "she has a right to be believed" according to the CSA until such time the CSA are informed otherwise by Child Benefit. I also discussed the possibility of cancelling the Direct Debit, which the agent reeled of the usual attachment of earnings script.
So it looks like I'm going to have to contact the College again and see if I can obtain any hard evidence such as my Daughter attendance record to help strengthen my case, contact my local MP with all of the current info I have and possibly consider cancelling the direct debit. Even if I am unable to obtain my Daughters Attendance Records then surely the Court has to obtain this evidence before they can proceed with the case? Worst case scenario is I have to pay the money back if it doesn't go my way.

I understand that the CSA are an unnecessary evil and are there if things do take a turn for the worst, however I simply can't understand why they don't/can't forward relevant information in situations like this as it seems as though you are talking to a brick wall as all they do is roll out their standard answers.

It's just such a convoluted hoop jumping process and unfortunately I now have to rely on the "investigation prowess" of the Benefits Fraud Agency. Let's hope they pick up the phone, call the number I gave them for the College, confirm the attendance record then inform the CSA. I mean how hard can it be. BTW does anybody know how long it takes for the Benefits Fraud Agency to "investigate" fraud claims.

Kind Regards

Liam

No idea how long it takes to do a fraud investigation - I suspect the problem is compounded by whether they can tell you anything at the end of it.

I would advise chasing the CSA politely every 2 weeks or so, otherwise it could get buried, but go and see you MP asap - even they can take a while.

I think the CSA are a necessary evil, rather than an unnecessary one - if everyone could come to an agreement, they'd be out of work in no time - the problem is that people can't agree, and because of the number, they have to apply standard rules and can't make exceptions to the rules where it's obvious they should be able to do so.

Well since the last time I posted I've been very busy informing as many "Officials" as possible. I've written two letters, one for the CSA and one for Child Benefit, I've informed the CSA that I will no longer be forwarding payment for maintenance with reasons as to why and contact details for the College, I've also sent one to Child Benefit with contact details for the College and reported my Ex for Fraud. I've also forwarded the two letters onto my local MP requesting that they get involved and to send both letters to the CSA & Child Benefit and I've also contacted Lord Freud whose the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Welfare Reform and forwarded a copy of the Child Benefit letter with details of my Ex partners fraud, so hopefully someone somewhere will actually bother to do something. I've also cancelled the Direct Debit and informed my Employers that if they receive an attachment of earnings to forward it to me and I'll speak to the CSA. If they take me to Court so be it as I've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. If only the system wasn't so [censored] convoluted I wouldn't have had to resort to these measures.

Anyway thanks for all the info and advice and I'll keep you informed.

Kind Regards

Liam

good, keep us informed Liam - as you say, you have nothing to lose as the worst that happens is you end up paying the arrears, which is what you'd be paying if you didn't do anything.

Hello Liam

I am William a Child Maintenance Option's consultant. Although I can not comment on individual cases with the Child Support Agency (CSA), I would like to give you some information that I hope you will find useful.

Firstly, since your second post you have not mentioned if you have managed to get the hard evidence from your daughter's college to confirm that she left in December 2012. If this is something that you would still like to do, you can do this by contacting your daughter's college and asking for written confirmation that she has left.

With regard to when payments stop under the CSA, you may be aware that their rules state that child maintenance must be paid to the receiving parent until the child turns 16 or until they reach 20 if they are in full-time education, or for as long as Child Benefit is being paid. The definition of full-time education is more than 12 hours a week of study, on a course up to and including A level standard. When a child leaves full-time education in the summer, Child Benefit generally continues until the first week of September. However, (and as you have not mentioned how old your daughter is) it may also be worth noting that anyone aged 16 or 17 who is not in education, is not working and does not receive employment related benefits is also defined as a child, and your child maintenance responsibility will continue during this time.

You may wish to speak to the CSA if you need any clarification on the above, in relation to your own situation. You can also find further information about exceptions to when Child Benefit payments generally stop, on the Government website Gov.uk, using the following link https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-16-19.

In your third post, you have mentioned that you have taken the decision to stop your child maintenance payments knowing that the CSA are still classing your daughter as a child for child maintenance purposes. The only way to ensure that you do not fall into arrears, or that the CSA do not take any enforcement action, is to continue making your payments until a decision has been made regarding the Child Benefit investigation you have made. Should an investigation find that your ex-partner is not eligible to claim Child Benefit for your daughter, you can contact the CSA to discuss how this may in turn affect your daughter's entitlement to receive child maintenance and your concerns about overpayment.

In terms of the action that the CSA will take if payments are not made, you already know, they can make immediate deductions directly from your earnings. This can be an amount of up to 40 percent of your earnings. Your employer must then pass this to them, if they do not, the CSA can take them to court. However, the CSA have other enforcement powers which they do not need permission to do, such as making deductions from your bank or building society accounts. In some cases they may also take you to court. When the CSA makes these kinds of decisions they will take into account the welfare of any other children involved and the likeliness of collecting money owed. You can read about this further online at https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance/nonpayment-what-happens.

To find out more about how Child Maintenance Options can help, or for information on all the options available to put in place a child maintenance arrangement, including online tools and forms to help with family-based arrangements, you can visit our website at http://cmoptions.org. If you would prefer a friendly and confidential chat, please call us on 0800 988 0988 (free from a landline).

We also have a sorting out separation web-app, it aims to make it much easier for separated parents to find the support they need, when and where they need it, and encourages parents to collaborate on a range of issues. The link is: http://www.dad.info/divorce-and-separation/sorting-out-separation.

Just keeping everyone whose interested updated on the latest developments between me and the CSA.

After sending them the Recorded Delivery Letter and cancelling my Direct Debit I've been inundated with calls from the CSA (I never knew I was this popular). On Friday 19th of July I received a call from Claire who was ringing about the letter they had received and was following up the information it contained, I explained the situation and asked if they had contacted the College to confirm the date my Daughter left and the sporadic attendance before she was withdrawn, the answer to this was no, as to why this had not been done Claire then told me they usually write to the College rather than contact them by phone to confirm attendance records, she then went on to mention that as my Ex-partner is still in receipt of Child Benefit that I was still liable to pay Child Maintenance, I then explained the reasons as to why I am unwilling to continue to pay maintenance to my Ex partner when my Daughter is no longer in further education and hasn't been for some time, I then referred her to the contents of the letter and for them to investigate my claim further. Claire then continued to threaten me with an Attachment of Earnings order and if that didn't go through they would arrange a Court Date to force me to pay Child Maintenance. I explained that I am willing to pay any Child Maintenance to my Ex-partner for my Daughter but only on the basis that she attends Full Time Education. We went back and forth over this for the next few minutes until I ended up getting bored and decided that it was the end of the conversation when I said I will await the Attachment of Earnings Order and Claire then informed me that my Case will now be passed to Debt Management and I will receive further information in due course.
I realised after the phone call that the CSA must employ several different types of Staff, the ones who ring you up and ask you a few basic questions and generally use bully boy tactics to force you to pay Child Maintenance and who can't generally answer any difficult or direct questions. You then have Case Workers who exist above the general CSA Agents and these are the ones who assess your case in greater detail and then make a decision from there, they can usually answer direct questions but not always as you will find out.
Had a nice weekend, went out riding on my new bike which was enjoyable happy in the knowledge that within the next few days my Employers will receive an Attachment of Earnings order.

Then I received a call on Monday 22nd of July from Trisha informing me that she was calling from the CSA about the letter they had received (I thought here we go again), but she was quite pleasant although not very helpful, I asked Trisha the same questions I asked Claire with pretty much the same results but Trisha didn't mention an Attachment of Earnings Order. Trisha apologised for being unable to answer any of my direct questions and she said she would pass my queries onto a Case Worker who will contact me within the next 24 hours to discuss my case further.

24 hours pass and I receive a call from the Case Worker who had been passed my file (her name eludes me as I'd pretty much given up caring by this point). She then continues to explain my case and the whys and wherefores and informed me that they will close the case and back date it from the 3rd of June, great I thought then I began to ask her about back payment and what will happen, she told me that they will calculate any back payments from the 3rd of June until the present day and they will inform me of any payments either to or from the CSA will be confirmed in a letter and I should expect to receive a decision within the next 14 days.
At least the case is now closed and no further payments need to be made, I then broached the subject of payments dating further back than the 3rd of June and what is my recourse for claiming any monies paid to my Ex-partner despite the fact my Daughter wasn't attending College during that time, she then informed me that nothing could be done and the 3rd of June is the earliest date the case could be closed. I then informed her that I have reported my Ex to Child Benefit and there should be an open fraud investigation case against my Ex, she then said that they do not receive any information from Child Benefit regarding start or stop dates only information that Child Benefit is still in effect. I asked her if Child Benefit was the only source of information they use to start a case and she confirmed that they didn't only rely on information from Child Benefit and other sources are used to help build a case. If that is the case then if any Non Resident Parent has enough information and they send that Information to the CSA it may well get looked at and assessed. I asked her if they intended to contact the College to confirm any of the information contained within my letter and the answer was No we do not contact Colleges to confirm a child's attendance. She also mentioned that my case was "Unique" which pretty much translates to "I've never dealt with this before" as when you search hard enough you will find cases similar to mine.

All of the above information is based on my own experiences in dealing with the CSA and the help and information found within this forum plus several other sources. This may help you in getting your case closed or certainly give you a helping hand when dealing with situations like this and the CSA. It is not a solution to the problem, but it my give you an idea on what you need to do.

Now my next question is how do I now pursue the recovery of back payments dating from December 2012 up until 3rd of June 2013. If anyone can give me help and advice on what to do, I'll write to the correct people and push a few buttons.

Once again Many Thanks for all the help and advice available on this forum as it is greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards

FYI,

Here is a draft of the letters I sent to the CSA and Child Benefit regarding my case

Child Support Agency
PO Box 31
Chester
CH70 8DN
To whom it may concern.
I am formally notifying you that I will no longer be paying child maintenance to Mrs Defrauding Ex.

In September 2012 my Daughter, Name Removed started an Animal Care and Management course based at Further Education College .
However in December 2012 my Daughter decided to withdraw from the course for reasons unknown to myself and did not attended for the minimum period of 12 hours of supervised study per week from December 2012 until she was eventually withdrawn from the course on April the 8th 2013 due to lack of attendance. My Daughters attendance on the course was very sporadic between these dates and as such the tutors had no option other than to withdraw Name Removed.

All of the above information can be confirmed by contacting the College on College Phone Number and requesting Name Removed attendance during this time. As my Daughter didn't attend the course for the minimum period of 12 hours per week as laid out on the Child Benefit Website, I am no longer obliged to forward child maintenance to Mrs Defrauding Ex and as such I will be withdrawing any further payments.

If you would like to discuss this matter further I can be contacted on Your Contact Number between the hours of 6pm - 8pm Monday - Friday and 10am - 5pm most Saturdays, alternatively you can write to me at the above address.

Yours sincerely

Your Name

PO Box 1
Newcastle Upon Tyne
NE88 1AA

To whom it may concern,
I am writing to inform you of the benefit fraud committed by Mrs Defrauding Ex Name and Address.
In September 2012 my Daughter, Name Removed started an Animal Care and Management course based at Further Education College .
However in December 2012 my Daughter decided to withdraw from the course for reasons unknown to myself and did not attended for the minimum period of 12 hours of supervised study per week from December 2012 until she was eventually withdrawn from the course on April the 8th 2013 due to lack of attendance. My Daughters attendance on the course was very sporadic between these dates and as such the tutors had no option other than to withdraw Name Removed.

All of the above information can be confirmed by contacting the College on College Phone Number and requesting Name Removed attendance during this time. As my Daughter didn't attend the course for the minimum period of 12 hours per week as laid out on the Child Benefit Website, I believe Mrs Defrauding Ex is committing fraud for Child Benefit, Child Tax Credits and any other associated Benefits.

If you would like to discuss this matter further I can be contacted on Your Contact Number between the hours of 6pm - 8pm Monday - Friday and 10am - 5pm most Saturdays, alternatively you can write to me at the above address.

Yours sincerely

Your Name

I hope this helps at least one person

Kind Regards

Wow Liam job well done I think!

Thanks for sharing the process with us...my feeling is that the important date is the 8th April 2013 when she was officially removed from the course. Up until that date, even with her sporadic attendance, she was still enrolled so I think you would be hard pushed to get any repayment before that date. The child benefit office may even state that as she attended until April the mother would still be eligible for child benefit until September, as is the case when a child finishes the school/college year in the June.

If the CSA won't refund then I seem to remember reading that you could perhaps take the mother to small claims court for the money that is owed. I don't know this as fact but you could look into it.

Best of luck with it and thanks for keeping us updated!

Hi Nannyjane,

Here's the information as I see it taken from the Child Benefit help pages on gov.uk

2. Education

You can get Child Benefit until your child turns 20 if they’re in eligible education. They must be accepted onto the course before they turn 19.

Courses that count

Education must be full-time (more than an average of 12 hours’ supervised study a week during term time) and ‘non-advanced’. This includes:

5. Your child leaves education or training

If your child leaves education or training at or after 16, your Child Benefit payments will normally carry on for a while.

When the payments stop depends on things like when your child’s birthday is, or the reasons why they left the education or training.

If your child leaves education or training, Child Benefit stops 31 August on or after their 16th birthday. However, if they leave after this date, it stops at the end of February, 31 May, 31 August or 30 November (whichever comes first).

Now there are either two dates when Child Benefit should have stopped either at the end of February dependant on the decision made by Benefit Fraud or Child Benefit or the 31st of May as this is the next date following my Daughter withdrawal from the course on the 8th of April.

The above information can be found here https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-16-19/overview

As I have been paying Child Maintenance during this time I now need to know the process I need to follow to successfully claim back any monies paid to my Ex partner. If anyone can help point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.

And thanks

Kind Regards

Liam

As NJ says above, the small claims court (correctly - the fast track court) may be the way to go once your ex has been dealt with by the benefits agency - there is a fee for the court, but it's not a great deal. The question is whether your ex would have the money to pay - if not, you could be chasing her for no benefit to you. The other consideration is any effect it may have on your daughter if you pursue you ex through the court - that's something only you know.

Well since I put the post up last night I've received another call from my case worker (turns out her names Michelle), anyway she rang to inform me that my Ex has been onto the College to confirm my Daughters leaving date and they "confirmed" it was the 22nd of April. My Ex then contacted the CSA and gave them this information. They then rang me to inform me of the change of date for closure of my case. I explained that the information isn't strictly correct and that I will be sending them another letter with a copy of my Daughters Attendance Record included and a copy of the Child Benefit requirements, explaining to them when Child Benefit should have stopped and the calculation of how much overpayment they need to send me due to the "oversight". Michelle agreed to put the case "on hold" until they receive this information.
I've also received a response from my MP and he has informed me that Child Benefit will be writing to me with regards to the information I have passed onto them.

Will keep you posted on what happens next.

Kind Regards

Liam

Excellent Liam.

I must admit I have had a lot of dealings with the CSA in the past (I'm the parent with care, so I was after maintenance from my ex) and there are a lot of good staff there - it's a matter of getting them, and being persistent. The biggest problem I had was frequent staff changes and reorganisations, so I'd get someone good for a few months, who knew the case inside out, and then they'd move elsewhere and I'd have to start again.

Hi Liam,

I have just seen your post, but my ex sounds even more deceitful than yours!

My son started a college course in Sept and left by Nov (he is 18 in June by the way). He has never attended since! Last month he started working. I complained to the Child Maintenance Service that I should not be paying and wrote to them, child benefit and MP. I have today had a copy of the letter that the CMS sent to the MP (who wrote to them on my behalf) stating that because my ex has confirmed that my son 'might' go back to college in Sept he is entitled to child benefit and I must still pay!

I have reported to the benefit fraud line and have no idea if they have looked into this or not yet. I have provided details of college and employer for them to check it out. How hard can it be? I am so frustrated that this cannot be resolved it seems.

Can you give me any advice as to how I may proceed? Perhaps I need to get a letter from the college like you did, confirming he left and attendance details. I don;t suppose I can really ask his employer for evidence.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Thank you

Jon

Cancel the Direct Debit, just because your Son "might" go back to full time education is not enough grounds for your ex-partner to continue claiming Child Benefit. They can only claim Child Benefit if the Child is in further education. See here: https://www.gov.uk/report-changes-child-benefit and point the CSA to the page. Write to the CSA informing them that your Child is now in employment and that you have cancelled the Direct Debit and send it Recorded Delivery, that way you have confirmation they have received your letter. Then let them take it up with your Ex-partner, in the meantime keep the payment amounts you have been making each month to one side, just in case things do go South. The onus is on the CSA to prove otherwise.

Good luck

Liam

Well, the CSA responded to my MP and I was sent the letter from the MPs office. Child benefit has been looked at and the Child benefit department have decided to continue paying because my son is' going to return to education in September!' (according to mother). I think this response could have been from before I sent my letter to all parties a couple of weeks ago.

I have contacted the college who confirmed that he left mid Nov, never to be seen again, and they withdrew him from the course. I am awaiting this in writing when I shall try again.

Hi Liam , I have been reading what has been happening too you.
The same thing is happening to us HELP !!
The children have not been in education for over a year now and she has been claiming the benefit fraudulently.
The csa have told us we need to pay or they will put a deduction of earnings.
This has made us so upset and cross as she shouldn't of been receiving the benefit.

What can we do help and advice please as we are meant to make a payment in 2 weeks time.

Thank you Lisa.

Hi Lisa,

The only thing I can suggest is to follow the same procedure that I followed when I started to investigate my ex-partners fraud. You need as much information as possible regarding the Child Benefit Fraud, give this to the CSA, Child Benefit and your local MP and take it from there. regrettably the CSA will not simply take your word for it and rely on the information provided by Child Benefit. If you can prove that the parent with care is defrauding you may have a case and may be entitled to a back payment but you need to get as much proof as possible.

Good Luck.

Liam

To both respondents to my post, sadly you have to do all the work for both the CSA and Child Benefit as they don't seem to care. You will need to provide contact details of the College the child attended, start dates/leaving dates, name and contact number of the tutor and attendance records. Obtain as much information as possible and provide this to both the CSA and Child Benefit, make copies of everything and send it recorded delivery along with a covering letter explaining the reasons as to why you are cancelling the Direct Debit and why you should no longer be paying for maintenance. They cannot argue with the truth, and they have all the information they require if they wish to start an investigation. It would seem that picking up the phone and contacting the childs college is just a little too difficult for certain Government Departments.

Regards

Liam

Ok, here I go, as with all issues around the CSA things are complicated, however the NRP (normally the Father) seems to get the bad deal, it's so heavily weighed in favour of the RP. My son has just finished a 2 year college course. He is 18 in a few weeks time and (as far as I know) he has absolutely no intention of starting another college course. He has ambitions to join the RN and is some way into his application, his careers adviser has informed him that if everything goes to plan he should start his training in January. Undoubtably his mother will continue to claim child benefit and the resulting CSA payment (around £200 per month) from myself for as long as possible. Is it correct that she can only claim child benefit if my son is in education? Will the child benefit dept contact her and ask what her plans are? ie will she continue to claim? I would not surprised if my ex persuades my son to go to college so enable her to receive all the benefits that go with it. My plan is to do nothing at this time and see how things pan out in September. Any advice from anyone with a similar situation?

To add insult to injury (or frustration) I was contacted by the CSA this week for upto date earrings details because they had been informed by my ex that I was earning more money. Not sure how she knows this !! But the extra £20 per month in my pay does not allow any changes. Perhaps she is going for one last biggy.

Please read the info on this page on claiming Child Benefit, if they are no longer in further education they are no longer entitled to Child Benefit or Child Support Payments.

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit

You get Child Benefit if you’re responsible for a child under 16 (or under 20 if they stay in approved education or training).

Only one person can get Child Benefit for a child.

You must report any change of circumstances to the Child Benefit Office.

As CSA payments are based on Child Benefit Eligibility.

Kind Regards

Liam

Thanks Liam, your previous on this thread are very helpful.