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I have had an ongoing issue where I am being expected to pay child support for an adult "child" who is over 18 and no longer in education. Simply put the situation is that the Parent with care (usually mother) just has to tell the CMS and the child benefit office that the child is still in education. None of these government agencies do any checking whatsoever which allows the PWC to keep fraudulently pocketing money for another year or two. I, like others in a similar position, have faithfully made payments for years and years without complaint but feel that paying for someone to sit and play x-box all day is a complete [censored] take.
Whilst I have been investigating this, most of the advice I could find on this forum and others is that if the mother was still in receipt of child benefit then there is nothing you can do. A lot of advice seems to be to report the other parent to Child Benefit office and sit and wait and see what happens. I think you should still report the fraud BUT you should also force the issue with the CMS as it is simply NOT true that because child benefit payment are being made means the CMS can close the case. The CMS call handler will tell you there is nothing you can do but they just want you to go away quietly so they can get on with f*cking over the next caller.
I have managed to force my issue to a tribunal (date awaited for hearing) and during the process have been issues with CMS internal correspondence including internal legal advice between the case worker and their legal dept. The following is an extract of that advice which I hope will help some people out there who are having their pants pulled down in a similar fashion. Please note that this applies to the "new" 2012 CMS regulations which I think should be most people:
"In accordance with Regulation 76 of the Child Support Maintenance Calculation Regulations 2012, a person aged over 16 but under 20 must satisfy certain conditions under the Child Benefit legislation in order for them to be a child for the purpose of child support law (i.e. that they must be a qualifying young person). However, unlike the 2003 scheme, there are no regulations under 2012 which advise a child will be considered a QC as long as child benefit is in payment.
Put simply, we (The CMS) apply the Child Benefit rules for determining Qualifying Young Person status ourselves, regardless of what HMRC has done in respect of any actual award of Child Benefit.
Whilst Child Benefit is not the deciding factor, it is a good indicator on which to base a decision where there is a lack of any evidence. We should not have made a decision solely based on the fact that child benefit remains in payment alone."
Given the above I would urge you to challenge the CMS. It is very difficult to get physical evidence from a school or college that your child is not in education due to data protection, etc. BUT think outside of the box - get facebook posts, text messages, etc. What about witness statements from someone who is willing to say they haven't been in education?? I would urge you all - don't just roll over. If you can get any evidence at all then fight the CMS, ask for a mandatory reconsideration, refer to a tribunal, etc. The process really isn't complicated. It doesn't cost you anything to go to tribunal and you have nothing to lose! The worst position is that you keep paying so no worse off than you are now.
I will let you know how my tribunal goes. After that I need to try and find away to recover thousands and thousands of pounds that I have had taken from me in state sponsored fraud. Fingers crossed - wish me luck!!
This is fantastic - please do keep us informed, this could change matters for a lot of dads 🙂
Hi there
Thanks for that info... although you may not think the process is complicated, you have to have the tenacity of a mountain goat!
Best of luck with your tribunal.
I forgot to mention in my previous post; for those having the same issue under the old CMS system then read Tribunal Decision DJ v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and TJ (CSM) (Child support – receipt of benefit). In this case the Agency expressed the view that the rules linked child support liability to the payment of child benefit. However, it was upheld that that the word “payable” in relation to child benefit means “properly or lawfully payable”. Thus, if the child benefit was being paid in error, then the child support liability should have ended earlier.
I am not a lawyer but I believe this decision means that, regardless of what CMS system you are under, if you have evidence that child benefit is being paid unlawfully then you should have grounds for an appeal to the CMS. I have no doubt they will dismiss you (I believe they systematically reject common sense arguments because they reckon 95% of people won't argue the toss). When you get rejected ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration from the CMS. As soon as you get a further rejection (which you almost certainly will), fill out a tribunal form as quickly as you can and get the process going - this process is time limited from the date of the response you get on the reconsideration decision letter.
Thanks very much to the administrators of this site. Whilst I didn't find the response I specifically needed on this particular item I did actually get some odd comfort knowing that I am not alone in being dealt with unfairly by the CMS. You do a great job offering help and support to others at a time when they need a bit of advice. Let's be honest - this website is aimed at a demographic that isn't always great at opening up and asking for help. I personally didn't even want to bother my wife with this because I didn't want her worrying.
thanks for sharing jellybean. this is a good experience for some of us like me that are new to this part-time dad business. i guess there are many angles to this. report mother for child benefit fraud, complain to CMS. Or perhaps if your children are close to you and dont hate you, you can ask them to sign a letter, confirming that they are no longer in full-time/non-advanced education, and use that as evidence.
Thanks for your kind words Jellybean, just a pity you couldn’t find exactly what you were looking for here... but as you rightly touched upon, you get a very real sense on here, that there are countless others being treated badly by the CMS, and there is a certain comfort from knowing that.
I think guys in general are getting a little better at opening up and sharing their feelings... we need more forums like this, to get the message out there...”talking really does help and asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness! “
Please do keep us posted DF123
Bill... I don’t think it’s a good idea to get the kids to sign letters, it could cause all manner of problems between them and their mother.
I think it’s best to keep our children away from adult/parenting issues... involving them will only cause upset for them.
The Government make a big thing about detecting benefit fraud, but from what previous members have said, no action was taken against the mothers, even after reporting them for benefit fraud to the dedicated benefit fraud hotline!
According to recent figures 88% of reported fraud was not acted upon, due to lack of evidence.
Jellybean - thanks for your kind words about the forum and wish you all the best with your tribunal.
Do let us know how you get on.
Bill - agree with mojo - not a good idea to ask this.
I'm no expert in this field, but I would have thought the onus would be on the agency to prove that the father is liable.
I have exactly this problem, with 2 of mine. Been fighting this for over 2 years now. But refuse to give up. Followed the process in the original post, waiting on tribunal date.
The CMS are tying themselves in knots, are different answer every time they call me, first they cannot investigate, then they can, then they cant, then they can, you get the drift.
I too am sure they just hope you give up.
Reported it to Child Benefit multiple times, have recently managed to find out that it appears they have never investigated, or if they did it was a pathetic effort.Data Protection is an utter nightmare.
This is clearly a problem, one which I think they are desperate to not expose.
I have involved my MP, it helps to stop them from ignoring you:whistle:
Wont be giving up, this has had an effect on one child's future and beginning to on the second, not happy.
The powers that be need to close this "loophole" as it is ruining children's/young people's lives in some peoples quest for cash
someone else posted recently that the fact that child benefit is being paid does not necessarily mean that child maintenance has to be paid - this was news to us on here as well.
Further to my previous posts, please note that I have recently discovered that the Citizens Advice Bureau also give the same advice re the link between child benefit and child maintenance being bullsh*t. A direct quote from their website is as follows:
"It doesn’t matter whether or not Child Benefit is actually being paid to the parent with care. What matters is whether or not they’re lawfully entitled to receive it. If they’re not, the non-resident parent is no longer liable to pay child maintenance."
The CAB quote a different case than I did in my previous posts. I assume their advice will be legally checked so I would quote their case or both if you think it will help.
Either way the advice stands up - Child Benefit does not equal automatic right to Child Maintenance as long as you can demonstrate that the Child Benefit is being paid in error or fraudulently.
... just to mention, that link provides advice for Scotland and I think their rules are slightly different.
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